Author Topic: Human shield gets Fined?  (Read 5282 times)

Offline Martlet

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2003, 12:05:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
I'm waiting you to prove what was asked.

You're saying the guantamo bay camp does not violate the laws, well.. prove it.

So far it looks like I've proven more than you have.
Therefore I have less need to prove than you do.
You haven't told me one thing how theres no laws violated, but asked more than enough from me.
So you better get better backing on your argument, since you're on the weaker side as you haven't proven anything, buddy.

Or will you perhaps admit to not giving proofs when asked to?


You really are retarded.  I'm confident of that, now.  It's apparent that you feel if you can't defend your position, it's ok to skip over it and ask a question of your own.

Military Order of 13November2001 declares those held in Guantanamo Bay "illegal combatants".  

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(f)  Given the danger to the safety of the United States and the nature of international terrorism, and to the extent provided by and under this order, I find consistent with section 836 of title 10, United States Code, that it is not practicable to apply in military commissions under this order the principles of law and the rules of evidence generally recognized in the trial of criminal cases in the United States district courts.


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(c)  afforded adequate food, drinking water, shelter, clothing, and medical treatment;


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(2) the individual shall not be privileged to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding, directly or indirectly, or to have any such remedy or proceeding sought on the individual's behalf, in (i) any court of the United States, or any State thereof, (ii) any court of any foreign nation, or (iii) any international tribunal.
 


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GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba -- Locked inside like Army MPs, 25 members of Congress inspected cellblocks at Camp X-Ray Friday and hailed conditions for suspected al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists.  (Miami Herald)


So, I'm still either waiting for your proof otherwise, or (more likely) you to spout off again without defending your position.

I'm also still waiting for an answer to the OTHER accusation you through out, totally unfounded.  I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

Offline Fishu

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2003, 12:29:10 PM »
I'm still waiting you to prove on your behalf how the guantanamo bay camp doesn't break the human right or international laws.

I don't give a dime for how Bush administration has altered the law recently.

the "illegal combatants" term is already rather deciptive


and retarded? haha, I'm just acting like you are.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2003, 12:31:43 PM »
Note how terribly they are being treated.

Q. There have been a number of concerns raised about the treatment of the captives we hold in Guantanamo Bay Naval Station, Cuba. Are we incarcerating people inappropriately?

A. The predictable media blitz surrounding American-held captives at Guantanamo Bay has required the Department of Defense to vigorously defend security procedures at that military facility against a flurry of criticism by European governments and human rights groups.

To date, 158 detainees are being held at the naval base "Gitmo" (Note: U.S. presence there dates back to the Spanish-American War in the summer of 1898. For the history of the base, see http://www.nsgtmo.navy.mil/history.htm) Additional transfers have been suspended while construction crews work around the clock to expand permanent facilities that will eventually house as many as 2,000 prisoners.

Due to religious considerations, it probably was a mistake to have shaved the detainees prior to transfer in an effort to cleanse them of lice. The Pentagon certainly regrets releasing one picture taken by a Navy photographer as the first group of detainees arrived at the base Jan. 11.

However, I think the "outcry" is unfounded and primarily the result of the notorious British tabloids, Islamic groups in London, and political critics that have specific agendas to pursue. I think the majority of the American public, and the world, understands that inhumane treatment of prisoners is not the American way. The Navy and Marine Corps personnel assigned to Camp X-Ray are a highly trained, professional security police force and they are doing a good job.

The terrorist captives are in an environment that appropriately demands maximum security. These people are as dangerous as any criminal we hold in other maximum-security prisons. They are receiving exercise periods, warm showers, toiletries, water, clean clothes, blankets, three meals a day, prayer mats, excellent medical care, writing materials and private visits from the Red Cross. A Navy Muslim chaplain is available to minister to their religious needs if requested, and calls to prayers are broadcast over the camp PA system, with a sign indicating the direction of Mecca.

No one who has personally visited the camp, to include human-rights monitors from the International Committee of the Red Cross and a British team of investigators, has reported any complaints of inhumane treatment. A group of U.S. senators will visit the camp this week to report their findings to the public.

I might also note that if roles were reversed, if any U.S. soldiers had been captured by the Taliban in Afghanistan, I believe the potential for inhumane treatment of those prisoners would have been quite high.

Q. Some European governments and human rights groups are faulting the United States for not classifying the Afghan war captives at "Camp X-Ray" in Guantanamo as Prisoners of War, with full rights under the Geneva Convention. If this is a war on terrorism and we have captured terrorists, shouldn't they be designated Prisoners of War (POWs)?

A. U.S. officials say that all are being treated as though Geneva standards apply.

The strategy, rules and procedures that the U.S. will follow will be announced within a week. The decisions regarding the classification of the detainees will have significant ramifications concerning policies of prosecution.

The Bush administration has been very careful to refer to the prisoners as "unlawful combatants" or "battlefield detainees," and not prisoners of war. This is a complicated issue that has the Justice, State and Defense departments submitting recommendations concerning legal precedents for prosecuting and holding suspected terrorists. General Counsel William Hayes and a team of military attorneys have been at Guantanamo Bay to get a better understanding of the demographics of the detainees.

The interrogations are on-going, with the hope that more information will be obtained that can save innocent lives. For instance, it was reported this week that a captive senior al Qaeda leader provided information about an alleged plot to blow up the U.S. Embassy in Yemen with a truck bomb. This led to a decision to close the embassy consular office and tighten security around the facility. Information learned in Afghanistan has helped thwart possible attacks in Singapore and Bosnia. Under international law, POWs are required to divulge no more than basic information such as their name, rank, identification number and date of birth. In our quest for more information from these terrorists, I think the hesitancy to immediately label all detainees POWs and intentionally limit our ongoing interrogations is understandable.

U.S. officials say that the captives are not covered by the Geneva Convention because they were bands of people and not an organized military activity. I think this applies more appropriately to al Qaeda detainees than Taliban fighters. Under the third Geneva Convention, POWs may only be tried in the same courts and according to the same rules as soldiers of the country that is holding the prisoners. The administration is trying to determine if that is the optimum procedure to follow in all cases, and I don't think it is. It would mean that al Qaeda suspects could not be tried in any special military tribunal, but only by regular U.S. military courts using the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That would give the prisoners a right to appeal possibly all the way up to the Supreme Court.

American al Qaeda prisoner Sulayman Al-Lindh a.k.a. Abdul Hamid, (the media uses the name John Walker Lindh) has just arrived in the Alexandria, Va., county jail to face criminal charges in a civil court, and will have all rights and privileges of a United States citizen.

POWs would normally be returned home at the end of active hostilities; to me, it is unclear what would constitute an end to the war on terrorism. Further, in some cases returning detainees to their countries could result in their severe mistreatment or death, which would be in violation of international law.

Releasing the names of the captives is also troublesome. Many will not divulge their true names; many have aliases. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made a point when he said, "If people know who is in custody, then they know what kind of information conceivably might be available to us."

This is new, murky, unchartered territory for everyone. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft has said the detainees are being held for questioning and some will be sent to tribunals, some to criminal courts, some back to their home countries. A lot of the peculiarities of detaining terrorists were simply never envisioned when the Geneva Convention was drawn up. It will be a case-by-case basis for each detainee as hard decisions are made, and procedures and policies for prosecution are announced next week.

Offline Martlet

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2003, 12:32:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
I'm still waiting you to prove on your behalf how the guantanamo bay camp doesn't break the human right or international laws.

I don't give a dime for how Bush administration has altered the law recently.

the "illegal combatants" term is already rather deciptive


and retarded? haha, I'm just acting like you are.


Perhaps you should READ my posts.  The Miami Herald reported that inspectors determined the prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay were being well treated.

Do you have any intention of offering a basis for YOUR accusations?

Acting like I am?  I'll believe you are even ATTEMPTING to act like I am when you offer the slightest bit of evidence to support any of the 3 claims you've made in this thread.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 12:42:54 PM by Martlet »

Offline Fishu

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2003, 12:46:20 PM »
Martlet,

It's not about the treatment alone.
Didn't I say and quote enough things to make that clear?

What if some.. say.. 50000 americans would be jailed for indefinite time for being suspected of being involved in the act or planning of crime.

Would you say: "its for the protection of our country" or scream about violation of constitution?


Anyway, I got what I wanted out of you...  no proofs and acting towards you like you do with the others, caused you to call me a retard :D

Doesn't that kind of make you a retard.... :rolleyes:

Offline Martlet

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2003, 12:50:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Martlet,

It's not about the treatment alone.
Didn't I say and quote enough things to make that clear?

What if some.. say.. 50000 americans would be jailed for indefinite time for being suspected of being involved in the act or planning of crime.

Would you say: "its for the protection of our country" or scream about violation of constitution?


Anyway, I got what I wanted out of you...  no proofs and acting towards you like you do with the others, caused you to call me a retard :D

Doesn't that kind of make you a retard.... :rolleyes:


blah blah blah.   Let me know when you come up with the slightest evidence to back up any of your 3 accusations.  Until then, I'm comfortable in my knowlege that you ARE either retarded, or just the product of a failed education.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 12:52:39 PM by Martlet »

Offline Fishu

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2003, 01:03:37 PM »
Hehe, I've done quite enough for the evidence for a person who cannot personally go dig up the archives.

You again are raising all the time the need for proof beyond impossible levels for anyone but a professional investigator.

Do you get your kicks by asking for impossible high level proof from regular forum posters?

Seems like only about a hundred page report of that how the prisoners sent to guantamo bay aren't handled according to the human right and international laws would make you change your mind.. if even that, then you would possibly retort to Bush administration rulings.

First of all, it's not all about that are they treated according to laws IN the guantamo bay, but how their jurisdical rights and prisoner status is handled.


I've proven enough so far, so you can get a hike already.
Unless you come back with the proves I've asked.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 01:06:49 PM by Fishu »

Offline Martlet

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2003, 01:18:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Hehe, I've done quite enough for the evidence for a person who cannot personally go dig up the archives.

You again are raising all the time the need for proof beyond impossible levels for anyone but a professional investigator.

Do you get your kicks by asking for impossible high level proof from regular forum posters?

Seems like only about a hundred page report of that how the prisoners sent to guantamo bay aren't handled according to the human right and international laws would make you change your mind.. if even that, then you would possibly retort to Bush administration rulings.

First of all, it's not all about that are they treated according to laws IN the guantamo bay, but how their jurisdical rights and prisoner status is handled.


I've proven enough so far, so you can get a hike already.
Unless you come back with the proves I've asked.


Can you not read?  Do you think pretending I didn't post that article from the Herald means it didn't exist?  

I'm not asking for a 100 page report.  I'm asking for one-single-bit-of-evidence on the THREE accusations you made.

Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2003, 01:45:33 PM »
I have to say that I often cruise the O'Club posts just to see what the argument of the day is, and rarely, if ever, feel the need to add my two cents.

The previous posts contained (a) an assertion of the violation of human rights laws at Gitmo and (b) a request for evidence of which human rights laws are being violated.  

I offer up the following as evidence of  laws which may have been, or continue to be, violated at Gitmo (with my own thoughts in brackets):

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

[I would suggest that any prisoner, whether at Gitmo or otherwise, has a right to hear his or her grievances heard by a court.  This is a fundamental principle of Western legal systems, also know as habeas corpus.  The Gitmo visitors have no such right.]

"Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

[Note the reference to no person being held to answer for a crime without the indictment of a grand jury.  The reference to due process is also interesting.  The Gitmo prisoners have not, to my knowledge, been indicted by one or more grand juries.]

"Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense."

[Interesting references to (a) a right to a speedy trial (they have been in Gitmo since for, what, 18 months now, give or take?), (b) a right to an impartial jury "of the state....wherein the crime shall have been committed" (What would this be? Afghanistan?Actually, my view would be New York or the District of Columbia.  Either way, I don't think a military tribunal would meet the requirement), (c) a right to be advised of the nature of the offence in question, (d) the right to face one's accusers and (e) the right to counsel.]

Just my humble contribution to a reasonable discussion amongst ladies and gentlemen.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2003, 01:49:32 PM »
Unfortunately for your argument, they are "illegal combatants", not POWs or citizens.

That argument was tried in court, and found to be invalid.

Offline ccvi

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2003, 01:57:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
I find it absurd you are angry at being held to your statement.  If you are going to make accusations, have the facts to back them up.


I strongly agree.

The US should have really made sure they had facts about the existance of WMDs before attacking Iraq, instead of acting based on accusations.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2003, 02:03:43 PM »
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Originally posted by ccvi
I strongly agree.

The US should have really made sure they had facts about the existance of WMDs before attacking Iraq, instead of acting based on accusations.


Next time, read the whole thread.  It will keep you from looking foolish.

Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #117 on: August 14, 2003, 02:05:57 PM »
I've heard that before, so I see your point, but I would ask that you (or someone else) clarify a couple of things for me.

1.  Not being a scholar of the U.S. Constitution, does it afford protection to all people who are prosecuted by the U.S Government, or only citizens (whether born in the U.S. or naturalized)?  For example, if a Finnish tourist is visiting New York and commits a crime (a "regular crime" i.e., theft), can the U.S. Government lock him or her up and throw away the key, so to speak, without regard to the Constitution?

2.  Who in the U.S. Government has the authority to label someone an illegal combatant?  My understanding is that the President has the authority, but that he can delegate it to Ashcroft or Rumsfield.  Regardless of who holds the authority, could you please point me to the act of Congress which authorized such labelling.  Was whathisname (the "American Taliban") an illegal combatant?

3.  Which argument was found invalid?  That they may be POWs or that the Constitution doesn't apply in these circumstances?  If you have the citation for the judgment I would find it an interesting read.

Offline Martlet

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Human shield gets Fined?
« Reply #118 on: August 14, 2003, 02:17:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MJHerman
I've heard that before, so I see your point, but I would ask that you (or someone else) clarify a couple of things for me.

1.  Not being a scholar of the U.S. Constitution, does it afford protection to all people who are prosecuted by the U.S Government, or only citizens (whether born in the U.S. or naturalized)?  For example, if a Finnish tourist is visiting New York and commits a crime (a "regular crime" i.e., theft), can the U.S. Government lock him or her up and throw away the key, so to speak, without regard to the Constitution?

2.  Who in the U.S. Government has the authority to label someone an illegal combatant?  My understanding is that the President has the authority, but that he can delegate it to Ashcroft or Rumsfield.  Regardless of who holds the authority, could you please point me to the act of Congress which authorized such labelling.  Was whathisname (the "American Taliban") an illegal combatant?

3.  Which argument was found invalid?  That they may be POWs or that the Constitution doesn't apply in these circumstances?  If you have the citation for the judgment I would find it an interesting read.


1. not on American soil

2.  The President did, with a Military Order in November of 2001.  Ultimately, everyone answers to the courts, though.  The case of the handling of these prisoners was brought to court, and upheld.  Care of the detainees is the responsibility of the Sec. of Defense, according to the MO.  Walker was brought to the U.S.  Once here, he is protected under our legal process.  The same would apply to the detainees at Guantanamo, as far as I know.

3.  http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wbur/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=425534  There have been several cases and appeals.  Basically, but the US keeping them in Guantanamo, they are out of the jurisdiction of US courts.  As sneaky as it may be, it has yet to be proven illegal.

Offline Torque

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« Reply #119 on: August 14, 2003, 02:28:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Nice try....compare apples to apples, or does convenience drive your arguments?:)


People of faith often find it hard to see the apple for apples.