Church and State

[midnight Target]

My buddy and I are having an e-mail discussion of the separation of Church and State. He sent this. Quite interesting.

Here's what some founding fathers said....
 
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer  Christians for their rulers."
                                                         
                                                           - John Jay,  Founding Father,
                                                              1st Chief Justice of the
                                                              Supreme Court and one of the
                                                              men most responsible for the
                                                              Constitution.  
 
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government - far from it.  We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
 
                                        - James Madison, Founding Father, US
                                           President and chief architect of the
                                           US Constitution.
 
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ."
 
                                           - Patrick Henry, Founding Father, signer of  
                                             the Constitution.
 
"Is it not, that in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Saviour? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the Redeemer's mission upon earth?  That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first  precepts of Christianity?"
 
                                                   - John Q Adams, 6th US President
                                                      in 4th of July speech.
 
The term "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or other amendment thereof - or the Declaration of Independence.  In fact, the 1st amendment guarantees that it will not promote, nor interfere with the free exercise of  religion.  This is a far cry from expunging religion from the public square, which is the slant the ACLU and other non Christian groups would have you believe our founding fathers intended. From the quotes above, what do you think their intent was with regards to government and Christianity?
 

I'm still working on the return salvo.... this should be good!

[GtoRA2]

Interesting.

Are you going to share your response?

[midnight Target]

Of course!

[Frogm4n]

Right and left have always exsisted. Dig up lines from the other side.

[majic]

Good idea Frogman.  Get on it.  

[Shuckins]

MT,

The quotes by the founding fathers you listed in your original post speak for themselves.  If you check further I think you will find that those sentiments were not unusual.  Most of their compatriots felt the same way.  However much the country may have changed in the last 200 years, THAT is how they felt about the matter at that time.

Regards, Shuckins

[Dune]

Consider this, most of the Founding Fathers were Christians and many were Masons.  They felt that they had won the War through God's grace, help, etc.  However, they still felt that the Church and State should be seperate.  I feel that their intention was not that God be totally removed from anything to do with the government.  It was to make sure that there would be no official state religion such as the Church of England.  For many years it was against English law to practice Catholicism or types of Protestantism that was different than Anglicanism.  The Founding Fathers wanted to make sure that any American could be any religion they liked and there would be no government favoritism towards one or the other.  

IMO, this wasn't about removing the 10 Commandments from courtrooms, most of the Fathers would have approved of that, it was about preventing any a state-sponsored religion such as the Church of England, or letting a religion have as much control over the government as the Vatican did over France.  Much of Europe was still dealing with the effects of religious wars even in the late 1700's.

[Udie]

It will be interesting to see your responce MT  Personally I think your friend hit that one out of the park. And that you should quit while you're ahead and gohead and join the Republican party. Come on,  you know deep down inside that you want to!!!

[Frogm4n]

The supposed statement by madison never exsisted. It was made up. No proof that he said it has ever been found.


Real statements by James Madison:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."



John Quincy Adams was a Unitarian.

and

Patrick Henry,  made a number of statements suggesting that our nation was founded on belief in God, and that it was important to acknowledge God in civic affairs, but Henry lost the battle to put religion in the Constitution. More to the point, Henry was an anti-federalist, and vigorously opposed the Constitution when Virginia discussed ratification. Quoting Henry to prove things about the constitution is like quoting the chairman of the Republican National Committee to prove things about the platform of the Democratic party.

[eskimo2]

The FF's were hypocrites.  Who cares what they thought.  All that matters is that we do what is right.

eskimo

[Frogm4n]

Most of the FF's were deists. not theists. Thats why you see no refrences to the bible in the constitution. Thats why you also have  "natures's god" and "laws of nature" in the Declaration of Independence.

[midnight Target]

Well.... First of all, I will not even start this unless you promise to never take what I write as a personal attack. I said this before and I meant it. I envy your passion. I have no need to coerce you into thinking otherwise than you think now. I would be happy to trade verbal or written barbs with you as long as you recognize these facts. Our friendship is inviolate and I won't risk that which is dear to me.

Now that all that mushy hippie crap is out of the way...You wrote "From the quotes above, what do you think their intent was with regards to government and Christianity?"

Based on the quotes above I think it is pretty clear that John Jay, James Madison, Patrick Henry and J.Q. Adams (hardly a founding father BTW)were staunch Christians. Well la-de-da! It wasn't difficult to find an equal number of quotes from Founding Fathers of equal or greater stature that say just the opposite.

 Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

More Jefferson:

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill."

John Adams:

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"
Also Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Finally let's hear from James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

............sooooooo

Who's FF's trump here? It would seem that the guys who actually wrote the documents were pretty clear in there thinking. Even Madison whom you quoted as extoling the virtues of the 10 commandments made it plainly obvious "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"..

Your turn.

[Dune]

Regardless of whether they were theists or diests, it still doesn't answer the question of what the purpose of the seperation of church and state was to them.  Was it to prevent any involvement of religion/God/god in the government (such as the 10 Commandments in a courtroom or prayer in schools) or was it to prevent the establishment of an official "state religion" such as the Church of England?

I believe it was the later.  And if it was, is the current language of the law what they had invisioned?  You must admit that the FF's were fairly anti-establishment.  Sounds to me like they didn't like religion, but believed in God and felt he was very important to the foundation of the country.

[Frogm4n]

and religion in this country today is nothing but the establishment. they run their church's like companys.

[capt. apathy]

here is what the constitution says

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

sounds like Dunes take on it is dead on.  as I read it says gov't can make no laws on establishing, or interfering with the exercise of religion.

so those that take this to mean no prayer in school, 10-comandments out of the schools and courthouses, are wrong.  as a matter of fact they themselves are in violation because the are 'prohibiting the free practice of'

no law respecting an establishment of religion- I take this to mean the gov't won’t get involved in how churches are set up. this is the only reference I found in the constitution that came anywhere close to 'separation of church and state', and it was clearly designed to keep gov't out of the church and not vice-versa.

..or prohibiting the free exercise thereof-  so as I read it all these rulings limiting when and where you can practice or proclaim your beliefs are in clear violation of the language (and IMO clear intent) of the constitution

anybody else read those differently? any other reference to religion in the constitution I missed?