Author Topic: Photons  (Read 875 times)

Offline AKIron

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Photons
« on: August 15, 2003, 09:52:42 AM »
Some of the recent discussions here resparked my interest in physics and so I've been doing a bit of reading. One subject has really acquired my interest,  photons. Lemme see if I got this right. Photons always travel at the speed of light. Which means that they never age and therefore time does not pass from their perspective. Yet they are continually changing their position in the Universe. How is this perceived from their perspective? Also, since space/time is curved and a particular photon will never cease to exist can it be said that from their perspective there is no space or that they simultaneously exist at every point in space? This stuff blows my mind.
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Offline midnight Target

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Photons
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2003, 09:55:26 AM »
Step slowly away from the bong.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2003, 10:00:21 AM »
hehe :D
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Offline gofaster

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Re: Photons
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2003, 10:03:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Photons always travel at the speed of light. Which means that they never age and therefore time does not pass from their perspective.


Has it been accepted that light does not age?  Are we not seeing the stars as they existed in the past, rather than the present, given the temporal characteristics of lightspeed and distance?

Offline JBA

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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2003, 10:17:17 AM »
The light we see from the stars left them a long time ago and is still traveling towards us. So what we are seeing are events in the past.
An interesting conception is the Hubbell Tele. It looks into the past, as the universe is expanding and every object is moving away from every other object then at the edge of the Universe you are seeing the creation of space or TIME 0. The oldest objects are at the edge. Quasars and old galaxies, so to see the edge of the universe is to see the beginning/creation of time.
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Offline Octavius

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Re: Re: Photons
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2003, 10:21:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster
Has it been accepted that light does not age?  Are we not seeing the stars as they existed in the past, rather than the present, given the temporal characteristics of lightspeed and distance?


The stars that have existed in the past from our frame of reference give off or reflect individual photons.  They themselves 'age', but each individual photon does not.  The speed of light = c in all frames of reference.  You're not seeing individual photons aging... there are many many photons entering your eye at different times from your frame of ref.

Since time does not pass for an individual photon traveling at the speed of light (relative to us), distance is also irrelavent.  d = r/t.  d = 3.00x10^8 (m/s) / 0 sec.  d = 0 m.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2003, 10:34:32 AM »
I was gonna jump in, but then I saw strange mathly symbols.  The theoritical aspect is very interesting... but the numbers are too much for me... Superstring once forced my left eyeball to pop out.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2003, 10:44:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Superstring once forced my left eyeball to pop out.


hehe, know the feeling.
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Offline OIO

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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2003, 11:08:57 AM »
If you're a photon, your perspective would be irrelevant.

If you think about it, since no time passes for them being at lightspeed, the moment they burst into existence = the moment they cease to exist.

aka, a billion years ago mr photon was created in a star, travelled a gazzillion kilometers and smacked the rear portion of your retina and ceased to exist.

for the photon, no time passed.

so your answer is : From a photon's perspective, nothing happened because from its perspective it ceased to exist the moment it sprung into existence.

That they travelled that big of a distance without aging is another matter. From the photon's POV, it existed in all points in space that it traveled from its origin point to its termination point.

But since space-time is curved by gravity, and gravity is created by concentration of mass, and everything in the universe is in motion...

the photon travelled in a slight arc the whole way from point A to point B, (probably doing a Sine wave sort of trip as bigger mass objects pulled it to and away from them) And since nothing in nature is curved but rather a series of *very* small straight lines that make up a curve (aka, draw a biiig letter "C" on a chalkboard, then stick your face on any point of the letter "C" ..you will not see a curve but rather a straight line)...

then you could say that, if photons had any perspective they could perceive (remember their lifetime from their frame of reference=0), they would not perceive space-time (since time is 0). If anything, they would perceive their existence as an instant transfer of energy and negligible mass from origin point into termination point.



clear enough?

;)

(now them faster-than light traveling particles have one hell of a trip, but thats another story!)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2003, 11:22:43 AM by OIO »

Offline Sixpence

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Photons
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2003, 11:18:24 AM »
I fell like i'm listening to suzanne summers
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline AKWeav

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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2003, 11:54:09 AM »
Quote
If anything, they would perceive their existence as an instant transfer


Oh wow man, thats not enough time to even get laid once in your lifetime. Sucky :p

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2003, 12:27:23 PM »
hehe Weav

So, for a photon lucky enough to avoid annihilation from the beginning of the Universe until it's end, it could have traveled both everywhere and nowhere in both no time at all and eternity.

I'm beginning to think the kid was right, there ain't no spoon.
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Offline Stringer

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Photons
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2003, 01:08:20 PM »
Astro-Physics is all fun and games until a photon puts your eye out!

Offline Raubvogel

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Photons
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2003, 01:18:58 PM »
I am the walrus

Offline gofaster

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Re: Re: Re: Photons
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2003, 01:33:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Octavius
The stars that have existed in the past from our frame of reference give off or reflect individual photons.  They themselves 'age', but each individual photon does not.  The speed of light = c in all frames of reference.  You're not seeing individual photons aging... there are many many photons entering your eye at different times from your frame of ref.

Since time does not pass for an individual photon traveling at the speed of light (relative to us), distance is also irrelavent.  d = r/t.  d = 3.00x10^8 (m/s) / 0 sec.  d = 0 m.


I'm still not quite buying the non-aging of a photon, and maybe here's why:

The assumption is that Time = lightspeed.  In other words, distance would be irrellevant.  Yet, if we're seeing starlight travelling at light speed from a distant star, and that starlight is dated, then it would follow that the photos comprising that starlight are dated as well.  Therefore, for a photon, Time = distance travelled with lightspeed being constant.

Then again, I took up a profession that focuses on writing instead of mathematics, so maybe I'm way off in my calculation.