Thoughts about head ons

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Else, better be confident that tbe other is an honorable one and wont shoot at the pass, or be ready to dead if you try to evade.

<Looks over to Andy.>  



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Andy Bush:
jigster

If you objective is to spoil an adversary's gun tracking, you have some good ideas. Most of what you describe will tend to move you away from the other guy's gun line.

Now...about this 'low yo-yo'!! What you are describing does not sound like a low yo-yo maneuver...it sounds more like a bunt.

A Low Yo-Yo is a specific BFM maneuver designed to increase closure. It is not a defensive maneuver by any stretch of the imagination.

A 'bunt', on the other hand, is any unloaded maneuver...often used to gain airspeed (but only works in a sim when gravity is modeled correctly)...but it could describe any maneuver where the stick is pushed forward into something less than one G flight.

If you bunt while cross controlling with excess rudder, it is possible to get a flight path that tends to move down and away from an opponent's gun line.

Andy

My fault, bad description.

I kinda do it by feel, I need to do it alot more to accurately describe it  

Lemme try again...

After pulling up and away out of the attacker's flight line (up about 30 degrees or more, and roll between 60 or 30 degrees left or right) and gaining slight seperation I normally roll close to 180 degrees and pull hard which puts me in either a low yoyo, or a Split S depending on bank. The manuver can be modified easily by how long I pull. If I stop when I cross his flight path I can gain seperation in the other direction (and of course rolling upright), whereas if I continue the manuver I end up behind him with most of the energy preserved, (I lay off the G's when I cross his flight path if I don't see him turn) in normally what is a good offensive position.

Now I have used bunts before, by rolling inverted before he gets into gun range, and pushing forward, out of the attacker's flight path. Again this is normally with a little roll to further screwing up the tracking solution. Then a sharp down ward pull in a very steep yoyo, and more times then not, a Split S.

If I know I won't have the speed to catch the guy after the merge, I try to take it vertical while screwing his tracking, so I can dive on him after we pass.

So... basically I try to manuver in such a way that it's like we passed each other as if we were both going to make a HO pass, but without exposing myself to his guns, and if it works right I should be in position to go from defensive to offensive mode.

that better?

- Jig

[funked]

Pyro said:  "I can't believe I'm the only one who gets warm fuzzies as I'm halfway through an immelman looking staight back and seeing a guy still firing his head-on shot."

I don't just get the warm fuzzies, I usually get a kill.  

[pzvg]

You know, I think I'm beginning to understand what folks are trying to say
which, apparently, is that any move that changes you from a target to a threat is a DWEEB move and should not be attempted  
In doing my research on dweeb moves, I've discovered that, historically, I'm not qualified to be a Dweeb, eg; Molders,Blakeslee,Thatch (thatch weave,or how to force the HO)
I feel that given the combat situation in the MA, one should not be surprised by any move one makes while trying to win.
Of Course, if you want to remove the flagrent use of the long range deliberate HO, simple, turn off that range counter in the icons, that little bit of data is critical in setting up deliberate HO's,high deflection passes,etc, etc, disable that lead computing icon and see how far down the scale the "Dweeb" moves go.

------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Andy Bush]

Jigster\

You've got some good moves here! Your BFM terminology is a little off...let me help you out.

To start with, we need to understand that a BFM maneuver is described with reference to the bandit...not the horizon. So, when we talk about a Low Yo-Yo, the 'low' is in reference to the bandit's flight path...not where the ground is. A Low Yo-Yo could be flown in any direction...up, down...inverted, right side up, etc.

In your first maneuver, let's delete the term 'low yo-yo'...and replace it with the term 'slice'.

The maneuver you describe is an excellent bid for turning room in the vertical, followed by a slice that takes full advantage of Radial G to complete the turn in the least time. Good job!! Let's look at each part.

>>After pulling up and away out of the attacker's flight line (up about 30 degrees or more, and roll between 60 or 30 degrees left or right) and gaining slight seperation<<

Thsi is your bid for turning room. You could go in any direction...you chose to go 'up'. ('up' in this sense is with reference to the ground.) This is particulary good if you have a little more speed than you need...you can use the short climb to bleed that speed as you get separation 'above' the oncoming bandit.

Once you have your nose commited 'up', you can unload and roll to keep the bandit in sight as you orient your lift vector for the upcoming pull 'down'.

 >>I normally roll close to 180 degrees and pull hard which puts me in either a low yoyo, or a Split S depending on bank.<<

Split S...yes! Yo-Yo...no! A Low Yo-Yo is a form of acceleration maneuver used against a turning bandit when you do not have the ability to speed up and catch him...so you use a descending cut-off (with reference to the bandit's plane of turn) followed by a climb back up to the bandit's flight path. The cut-off and the descent provide the additional closure needed...so the Low Yo-Yo is used to catch up to a bandit (acceleration maneuver)...not to change direction (turning maneuver).

Here, I think you are using the term 'yo-yo' to mean 'descending turn that is on an oblique angle relative to the horizon'. The correct term for this is 'slice'.

Once you have gained the needed separation in your 'pull up', you roll to orient your lift vector back in the direction of the bandit (whom we presume is still flying straight ahead, fat, dumb, and happy...not a good assumption, but that's another story!!). If you orient your lift vector straight down, using the ground as a reference, then your next maneuver will resemble a Split S. If you orient your lift vector on an angle less than straight down, you will perform a 'slice'. The major difference between the two is the amount of altitude lost in the turn back.

>>I end up behind him with most of the energy preserved...in normally what is a good offensive position.<<

The reason for your advantageous energy state is that you have used gravity to increase your Radial G (min turn radius, max turn rate) while minimizing airspeed loss.

>>Now I have used bunts before, by rolling inverted before he gets into gun range, and pushing forward...<<


For a HO situation, I see little value in doing this. If you want flight path displacement in the shortest time, use positive G. While you may be able to keep the bandit in sight while doing this negative G bunt, the sim's AI should red you out very quickly.

OK!! So much for the academics. You have the right moves...you just needed a little polish on your terminology!

Andy

[SpyHawk]

Hey, the man is right.

I HO becuase I Suck

It evens the playing field against those with better E, planes, or better skill.

Am I a dweeb? No, I just suck.

There you go