Author Topic: Serious Whine (Read 1369 times)

MAJ KONIG · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2003, 03:34:35 PM »

ok, here's the energy deal, kinetic energy is the energy of motion. It depends on the mass and velocity of the object. Changing the velocity of the object will have a great effect on the energy.

there are 2 types of potential energy, elastic and gravitational. Since airplanes cant stretch elastic is out leaving us gravitational. Gravitational energy depends on weight and height.

so, here's the formula's:

Kinetic energy = mass x velocity(squared) divided by 2= KE

Gravitational potential energy= weight x height = GPE

Now, looking at these formulas there is no way a plane that converts kenetic energy into gravitational potential energy then agian converts to kenetic energy catch a plane in steady kenetic energy status. Now there is one variable to this and that is the speed of the two planes. The plane that conducts this move must be moving at an average of 150 mph faster than the steady kinetic plane. Also if the loop is started far in advance of the plane than it is reasonable that the looping plane will come down with a potential kill shot from above. BUT, if the planes passes one another as in a head on, then there is no way a plane should be able to loop converting his E twice catch up and kill the other plane. Does that make sence to anyone?

Furious · « **Reply #16 on:** August 21, 2003, 03:43:55 PM »

I was not commenting on the situation you described, as much as on a misconception with regards to what E is.

...but could you imagine a scenario where a non-manuevering 300 mph con (A) is passed by a 450 mph con (B) who pulls a low g immelman that tops out 2,000 feet above A on the same heading as A and with an airspeed of 290.

Would it then be possible for B to nose down and real in A?

MAJ KONIG · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2003, 05:44:44 PM »

It could furious if the plane started the loop before he passed the plane traveling at 300 mph. but ya gotta remember the acceleration factor involved. Most planes with a fast acceleration usually didn't have a real high top end speed.

icemaw · « **Reply #18 on:** August 21, 2003, 05:58:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Furious
I was not commenting on the situation you described, as much as on a misconception with regards to what E is.

...but could you imagine a scenario where a non-manuevering 300 mph con (A) is passed by a 450 mph con (B) who pulls a low g immelman that tops out 2,000 feet above A on the same heading as A and with an airspeed of 290.

Would it then be possible for B to nose down and real in A?

Yes it would. How ever from a distance of 4.0 I find it hard to fathom. Like I said I am not saying anyone is cheating. But if its some trick move I would like to know the secret. Its not like the bog slowly pulls me in I am talking about warp power scotty. From the moment he tops out on his immel the dist starts closing.

As far as pulling a low g immel starting at 450 and ending out at 290 I will have to try that.

ALF · « **Reply #19 on:** August 21, 2003, 08:08:06 PM »

Here is a film of a P28 starting out at 400-425 and reversing in an energy preservation climb and reversal, comming out doin 375-380. This is why judging your enemy E state is so critical...if he has more than you....direction can be meaningless.

www.combathanger.com/p38zoom.ahf

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #20 on:** August 21, 2003, 11:35:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by icemaw
Yes I know but we passed HO the bog dove under me. I kept flying in a straight line. He pulled up blowing all his speed converting his E then caught me while all the time I have been motoring away at 300mph.

He probably did what I do in situations like that. When I start my dive, I "unload" my aircraft to quickly accelerate in a dive. Before I know it, I'm reaching close to 400mph IAS in the dive and when I'm leveling out, my speed is close to 475mph IAS. Easily enough speed to catch almost anything running from me with a prop at high speed. What I mean by "unloading" is pushing your nose down until you're doing 0 G's and holding it there to quickly accelerate.

ack-ack

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #21 on:** August 21, 2003, 11:50:56 PM »

It would be a good idea to watch that film that Alf posted. If you watch it, you'll see that when the P-38 went over the top of the Immelman, he was doing close to 250mph. Then watch the G meter as he starts his dive. You'll see him unload his airplane by doing a negative G dive and quickly accelerate. When you watch the film and look at the G meter when he starts his dive, pay attention to the speed meter in the right side of the screen and watch it quickly increase as he unloads the P-38.

ack-ack

MAJ KONIG · « **Reply #22 on:** August 22, 2003, 03:25:35 PM »

Thats interesting I dunno if i agree with it though considering the P38 weights 17500 lbs and has a -3.5 G rating. I would tend to believe that 250 mph at the top would be a tough goal for a 17500 lb airplane. I am going to have to look more into this I can see how the P38 can turn so well especially at higher speeds but, some of these other moves I am going to spend some time to look at.

DmdNexus · « **Reply #23 on:** August 22, 2003, 04:14:57 PM »

"I would tend to believe that 250 mph at the top would be a tough goal for a 17500 lb airplane"

Using that kind logic, then only pigs would fly.

A little voice is speaking to me....it's saying....

Thrust.... thrust.... thrust.... thrust......

thrust vs weight ratio

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #24 on:** August 22, 2003, 05:14:55 PM »

Sounds like you are familiar with the models of different flight sims. Ive been in here nearly2 years and have yet to see a bonafide cheat.

rpm · « **Reply #25 on:** August 23, 2003, 04:13:00 PM »

Pretty simple, If the P-38 timed his turn correctly he could be on your 6 for several seconds at a lower speed (enough to kill a 190).

MAJ KONIG · « **Reply #26 on:** August 25, 2003, 11:34:39 AM »

ok, here's the situation you have two planes that head on each other. Both planes are traveling at 300 mph. For every secound that that goes by before the loop is made the planes are distancing themselves by 26400 feet per secound(or 5 miles) say the looping plane is a P38 and lets say it takes him 3 secounds to complete the move putting him roughly at 79200 feet(or 15 miles) behind the plane, after the loop he's able to obtain top speed for the P38 (460 mph) the P38 will only be able to gain 234.6 feet a secound. Now if the P38 can sustain top speed it will take 337.5 secounds (roughly 5.6 minutes) to catch the 300 mph airplane. This configuration is giving the P38 the best possible situation. Now, I know this real world formula doesn't pertain to AH because we've all seen the looping plane to almost imediately engage the passing airplane. So, what Iam saying is that I don't think anyone is cheating but, I think the game perameters on certian planes are pooched and I have noticed that some people's connections are so bad that contributes to these problems.

Modas · « **Reply #27 on:** August 25, 2003, 12:22:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MAJ KONIG
ok, here's the situation you have two planes that head on each other. Both planes are traveling at 300 mph. For every secound that that goes by before the loop is made the planes are distancing themselves by 26400 feet per secound(or 5 miles) say the looping plane is a P38 and lets say it takes him 3 secounds to complete the move putting him roughly at 79200 feet(or 15 miles) behind the plane, after the loop he's able to obtain top speed for the P38 (460 mph) the P38 will only be able to gain 234.6 feet a secound. Now if the P38 can sustain top speed it will take 337.5 secounds (roughly 5.6 minutes) to catch the 300 mph airplane. This configuration is giving the P38 the best possible situation. Now, I know this real world formula doesn't pertain to AH because we've all seen the looping plane to almost imediately engage the passing airplane. So, what Iam saying is that I don't think anyone is cheating but, I think the game perameters on certian planes are pooched and I have noticed that some people's connections are so bad that contributes to these problems.

Dude - check yer math...

300 mph = 440 feet/sec.....

both planes on a direct headon is 600 mph closure or 880 ft/sec.

planes will distance themselves at 880 ft/sec not 26400 ft/sec

If 26400 were correct, the closure would be 18,000 mph or 9000 mph per a/c

DmdNexus · « **Reply #28 on:** August 25, 2003, 12:28:48 PM »

You're forgetting to factor in how many G's the P-38 pulled in the loop.

Too many newbies... pull until they black out. Blowing E!

I kill people all the time that fly "better" planes than I do... I let them turn to me and blow all their E in high G's maneuvers and they can't understand why I fly circles around them.

When in a foot race. There's an energy conversion which occurs by diving and then climbing. Someone else can explain it better - there are charts. It's a physical principle which I know about and have used... but I can't explain it.

Flying flat and level in a foot race will get you killed - period.

Even if you think you have the fastest plane, even if you start out with more E - yah someone who is diving and then climbing... will catch you.

P-38's are good at this energy conversion technique. Better than Dora's.

MAJ KONIG · « **Reply #29 on:** August 25, 2003, 01:51:24 PM »

Thank you Modas, I forgot to divid by 60 (for secounds) all these damn interuptions here at work, don't these people realize I have a hobby

. I agree on the yo-yo effect as long as you dont ever drop below the constant flight speed and if altitude isn't too great. Well this has been a great topic for discussion but I am beginiing to think that this dead horse is startin' to smell.