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Offline Holden McGroin

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Iraq
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2003, 02:33:59 AM »
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Originally posted by Nefarious
I might be wrong, but wasnt Southeast Asia (French Indo-China)acquired by France after Allied Victory in the Pacific?

Anybody know for sure?


French Indo China was a European colony before ww2 along with Dutch East Indies, British India, Spanish (then US) Phillipines,etc...
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Offline Spooky

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« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2003, 04:36:19 AM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
Frenchy, you do know that Vietnam was a French screw-up, right?


France specifically asked for US heavy bomber support at Dien bien Phu, it could have turned the tide...

It was denied.  

I guess the US thought it was best to let Vietnam fall into communist hands, then swoop in and rack up the goodies...

history proved them wrong.

Note that I am not really criticizing the US attitude, I am cynical enough to appreciate " realpolitik"...

As usual, innocents and brave men payed the price though...
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2003, 09:07:47 AM »
at the end of WW2 france wanted their colony back , and ho che min asked truman to help vietnam become independent, but truman wanted to support our "friends' the french and refused ho che min.

Ike did not give the support the french asked for and france lost indo china.

the vietman war was the result of JFK (bay of pigs) LBJ (i can pick bombing targets from the white house), McNarmra( my wiz kids can solve any prob with numbers) and the US state dept( we mess everything up)...so now you know why there was a vietman war.

BTW nixon forced NV to sign a peace treaty in 75 and both sides with drew combat troops, then nixon resigns , democratic congress cuts off all mil aid to SV, in 77 NV invades SV and ford refuses to intervene. and the south falls.

which brings us to the title of this thread ..iraq.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2003, 09:13:51 AM by john9001 »
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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2003, 09:16:04 AM »
Now I know why there was an Iraq II war too John.



:D
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Offline Dnil

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« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2003, 11:47:33 AM »
Frenchy, are there no pilot jobs in France?  Why bite the hand that feeds ya?
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2003, 12:17:45 PM »
Why is it a "French screew up"?
====
Because the Fench treated the Viets like **** and denied them their basic rights as humans.  Thats why its a french screw up.

The Viets kicked the ever livin **** out of the french militarily and politically.

The reason the world is such a ****ed up place today is becasue France and England were such dumb and mean bastards when they ruled the planet.
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Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2003, 12:18:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
at the end of WW2 france wanted their colony back , and ho che min asked truman to help vietnam become independent, but truman wanted to support our "friends' the french and refused ho che min.

Ike did not give the support the french asked for and france lost indo china.

the vietman war was the result of JFK (bay of pigs) LBJ (i can pick bombing targets from the white house), McNarmra( my wiz kids can solve any prob with numbers) and the US state dept( we mess everything up)...so now you know why there was a vietman war.

BTW nixon forced NV to sign a peace treaty in 75 and both sides with drew combat troops, then nixon resigns , democratic congress cuts off all mil aid to SV, in 77 NV invades SV and ford refuses to intervene. and the south falls.

which brings us to the title of this thread ..iraq.


Correct me if I'm wrong but...

North Vietnam and the US signed the peace treaty in 1973 following the last US air offensive (Linebacker?  Or was it Rolling Thunder II?).

The final NVA offensive takes place in 1974-1975, with Saigon being overrun in 1975 (not 1977).

As an aside, the 1975 evacuation of Saigon is the first operational deployment of the F-14A which was then replacing the F-4 Phantoms on the decks of the USN carriers.
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Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2003, 12:22:19 PM »
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Originally posted by Yeager
Why is it a "French screew up"?
====
Because the Fench treated the Viets like ***** and denied them their basic rights as humans.  Thats why its a french screw up.

The Viets kicked the ever livin ***** out of the french militarily and politically.

The reason the world is such a ****ed up place today is becasue France and England were such dumb and mean bastards when they ruled the planet.


Just out of curiosity, if Vietnam was a French "screw up" how would one classify the US involvement?  A success?

Both countries thought that isolated firebases, heavy firepower and pacification of isolated pockets of the local population would be successful, and both were wrong.  So how can you criticize French foreign and military policy in Indochina when there is a memorial in Washington, D.C. which serves as a testament, in part, to the futility of the US involvement in Vietnam?
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2003, 12:50:03 PM »
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Just out of curiosity, if Vietnam was a French "screw up" how would one classify the US involvement?  A success?



A Democrat screw up (Kennedy, then Johnson escalated it, then handed it over for Nixon to end)
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Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2003, 01:17:41 PM »
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
A Democrat screw up (Kennedy, then Johnson escalated it, then handed it over for Nixon to end)


I get it.  That explains the little "D" or "R", as applicable, which follows each of the 58,000+ names on the Vietnam Memorial.

So....

Gulf War II - Good conflict started by a Republican
Afghanistan - Good conflict started by a Republican
Gulf War I - Good conflict started by a Republican
Panama - Good "conflict" started by a Republican
Grenada - Good "conflict" started by a Republican
Korea - Bad conflict but good ending (started by a Democrat but ended by a Republican)
Vietnam - Bad conflict but good ending (same as above)
WWII - Bad conflict started by a Democrat

Who would have thought that world history could be so easily explained solely by reference to which party the democratically elected President of the United States belonged to?  Now if we could just figure out how to explain, in similar simplistic terms, all of the events that affected the world prior to 1776.....
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2003, 01:33:41 PM »
You do realize the investments made by the Johnson family in the ammunitions sector of businesses in the 60's right?  I guess we can attribute as much of a link to that and Vietnam as we could, say, Cheney and Enron? ;)
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Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2003, 01:43:50 PM »
I'm not sure I understood the comment, but if you are suggesting that a politician would start a war for the benefit of an increase in his investment portfolio, it should make all of us wonder whether the right kind of people are being elected by the US population.  But I'll chalk up the happy face as sarcasm on your part

:D

In any event, I'm all for capitalism and investing in whatever gets you the greatest return, and I won't hold a politician's investments against them so long as (a) the products being produced do not do any harm (i.e., the ammunition in this case wasn't defective) and (b) the politician in question does not use their political power to manipulate the free market process which in some way benefits his/her investment to the detriment of others.
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2003, 01:56:43 PM »
Glad you saw the similarity and the sarcasm ;)

To put it plainly, I believe there are "Just" wars and there are
"wars just to have wars".  Vietnam was not a "Just" war.
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Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2003, 02:16:12 PM »
Agreed and agreed.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2003, 02:58:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why is it a "French screew up"?
====
Because the Fench treated the Viets like **** and denied them their basic rights as humans.  Thats why its a french screw up.

The Viets kicked the ever livin **** out of the french militarily and politically.

The reason the world is such a ****ed up place today is becasue France and England were such dumb and mean bastards when they ruled the planet.



This post look to be the best of your "I make my mind using clichés"  posts ...
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