Author Topic: Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?  (Read 2569 times)

Offline Rutilant

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2003, 08:49:36 PM »
Enola Gay! You christians consider that plane a sinner?

Offline Animal

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2003, 09:18:07 PM »
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Originally posted by Mini D

The A-Bomb did not have to be dropped.  But it did bring the war to an end.  What an obvious conflict this must be for liberal wheenies such as yourself.
[/b]

Yeah it did bring the war to an end. I just think humanity would have done better instead of settling for a C+ effort. Truth is using the bombs was cheaper than a blockade, and America was tired of the war. They were willing to kill tens of thousands of dehumanized enemies rather than withstand another year of war rations and far away relatives.

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A blockade would have starved hundreds of thousands of people.  An invasion would have caused untold damage to the country.  Civilians on outlying islands had already committed mass suicides to avoid U.S. soldiers/occupation.  2 bombs hit 2 cities and the war was ended.


The starvation of hundreds of thousands would have fallen on the shoulders of their government and of the people themselves. They would not have lasted long before dissent seeded. Even some of their more honored soldiers were tired of the war and wanted it to end. Sakai himself was against kamikaze attacks and in his writing he mentioned that most of his group was in agreement. Not all Japanese were mindless fanatics as it is comonly believed. The emperor himself was anxious and emotionally defeated and was only holding on because of pressure from his generals.

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The ironic thing... the Hiroshima and Nagasaki stories are much greater than the Tokyo firebombing stories.  I'd even wager that if we'd just leveled the two towns using B-26s nobody would really even care and the war would have raged on.


I agree 100%, and I never argued against that. That does not make the a-bomb attacks more human or justifiable.

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But... nukes are bad and no good can come from their use.  Mmmmkay.

MiniD [/B]


Do you honestly believe that good came from the atomic bomb attacks?

Look, I'll give you something; I know the foolishness in my arguement is that it has 20/20 hindsight as a backbone. I do *NOT* believe the a-bombs where thrown for the sake of evil, and that Americans where bad and the Japanese where poor lost souls who lost their way. I simply believe, from what I have studied coming from both sides that it should not have been so bad. Hell, one bomb would have been enough. Waiting three days back then in that moment was like throwing a nuke and waiting an hour for another one in the modern world. There was no way Japan could internally negotiate a surrender in less than a week back then. One day for news to reach the top level (how can you inmediately report that you just have been nuked into ashes?), two more day for the chain of comand to decide what to do with what just happened. They didnt even know that weapon existed; for all they knew it was fantastic bull****, they could not even describe what happened without refering to religious terms).

Anyways I'm gonna stop now because no one who does not want to agree will read this entirely. You can now attack me as an individual in order to save your Baby McRib calories in pondering what I just said and using a counter arguement.

Offline DiabloTX

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2003, 09:20:31 PM »
Let me state for the record that I support the decision to use the atom bombs against Japan.  

With that being said, I feel that all should read this document in its entirety.  When you reach the conclusion you can sooooo tell that the US Gov't does everything only for the advancement of the US and tries to come up with any excuse to rationalize its actions against other nations.  Animal, you were soooooo right about us, we come up with an excuse for everything, especially our new little toy.  

UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY, Summary Report (Pacific War)  July 1, 1946
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Offline Martlet

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2003, 09:21:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal


Yeah it did bring the war to an end. I just think humanity would have done better instead of settling for a C+ effort. Truth is using the bombs was cheaper than a blockade, and America was tired of the war. They were willing to kill tens of thousands of dehumanized enemies rather than withstand another year of war rations and far away relatives.



The starvation of hundreds of thousands would have fallen on the shoulders of their government and of the people themselves.  [/B]


The responsibility for the dropping of the bombs falls on the Japs too.  They started that war.  It's a little late to say "Wait, we wouldn't have started it if we had known you were going to play with the big toys, that's not fair!"

Offline Animal

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2003, 09:28:24 PM »
A man is attacked by a burglar in his own house. After a fierce fight, he comes ahead and the burglar is on the floor incapacitated; he is still struggling, but cant realise he lost the fight and is pinned down.
The man decides that smashing  the burglar's knees with a sledgehammer will in the end save more effort and damage than tying him down until the burglar can struggle no more.

After all, the burglar brought it upon himself.

Offline Mini D

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2003, 09:29:53 PM »
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Do you honestly believe that good came from the atomic bomb attacks?
Simple question (that you've already answered): Did the bombs bring about an end to the war?

How is it that no good came from their use again?

You seem to be arguing that people view them as glorious and magical devices.  They were weopons.  They were used.  They ended the war with less loss of life than virtually any other scenario you can come up with.  "who's shoulders" is not relevant... dead is dead.

The numbers that some dip**** posted above in regards to forcasted U.S. losses if we were to land on Japan were conservative.  Take that number, then subtract that number and that's how many U.S. losses actually occured before ending the war.  Now take that number and multiply it by a great deal and that's how many losses would have occured on the Japanese side.

A blockade would have starved hundreds of thousands.  You seem to prefer this for some reason because it shifts responsibility.  Of course, the U.S. would still be seen as villainous for using these tactics.  And, somehow, the loss of life seems to be less relevant here.

It really comes down to the fact that a nuke was used and people need to do whatever they can to find fault with the decision because it eases their worries in regards to one being used again.

MiniD

Offline DiabloTX

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2003, 09:30:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
A man is attacked by a burglar in his own house. After a fierce fight, he comes ahead and the burglar is on the floor incapacitated; he is still struggling, but cant realise he lost the fight and is pinned down.
The man decides that smashing  the burglar's knees with a sledgehammer will in the end save more effort and damage than tying him down until the burglar can struggle no more.

After all, the burglar brought it upon himself.


You forgot the part where the burglar raped and murdered the man's wife and daughter while he was sleeping.  That would be a bit more accurate.
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline Animal

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2003, 09:34:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D

You seem to be arguing that people view them as glorious and magical devices.  
MiniD


Oh, I am sorry. I must have misread the part when some people where claiming the Enola Gay was the plane that saved most lives in history; even above the DC3/UH1/U2/etc.
The Enola Gay was just like the Millenium Falcon when they destroyed the Death Star.

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Originally posted by DiabloTX
You forgot the part where the burglar raped and murdered the man's wife and daughter while he was sleeping.  That would be a bit more accurate.


Oh, then I also forgot the part when the man burns alive the burglar's family with gasoline as retaliation.

Offline Martlet

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2003, 09:35:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
A man is attacked by a burglar in his own house. After a fierce fight, he comes ahead and the burglar is on the floor incapacitated; he is still struggling, but cant realise he lost the fight and is pinned down.
The man decides that smashing  the burglar's knees with a sledgehammer will in the end save more effort and damage than tying him down until the burglar can struggle no more.

After all, the burglar brought it upon himself.


See, you're catching on.  There's hope for you yet.

Offline Martlet

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2003, 09:37:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
Oh, I am sorry. I must have misread the part when some people where claiming the Enola Gay was the plane that saved most lives in history; even above the DC3/UH1/U2/etc.
The Enola Gay was just like the Millenium Falcon when they destroyed the Death Star.

 

Oh, then I also forgot the part when the man burns alive the burglar's family with gasoline as retaliation.



I thought you said he had broken knees?

Offline Mini D

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2003, 09:42:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
Oh, I am sorry. I must have misread the part when some people where claiming the Enola Gay was the plane that saved most lives in history; even above the DC3/UH1/U2/etc.
The Enola Gay was just like the Millenium Falcon when they destroyed the Death Star.
You forgot to list the SR-71.  I'd also throw the C-130 into that list as well as the cargo planes used for the Berlin Airlift.

But then, you also ignored a very good point made by someone else.  No single plane, hellicoptor nor spacecraft has ever had an impact (ended a war) like the Enola Gay and Bock's Car (OK.. 2 planes).  Not any one single plane.


MiniD

Offline Animal

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2003, 09:42:55 PM »
I'll just leave this discussion with this thought.

Had I been the President back then, I would have ordered planes do drop leaflets all over japan saying "HEY studmuffin LOOK AT THE WEST SKY TONIGHT DURING MIDNIGHT WE HAVE A SURPRISE FOR YOU"

And then order the detonation of an atom bomb several miles off the west coast in mid air. All of Japan would have **** their pants when they see this huge impressive explosion and flash, and millions of dead fish next morning washing ashore.

Next day, more leaflets. "SURRENDER NOW OR WE'LL DROP TWO MORE IN SOME RANDOM CITIES, AND MAYBE A THIRD ONE IN THE IMPERIAL PALACE."

Offline Martlet

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2003, 09:44:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
I'll just leave this discussion with this thought.

Had I been the President back then, I would have ordered planes do drop leaflets all over japan saying "HEY studmuffin LOOK AT THE WEST SKY TONIGHT DURING MIDNIGHT WE HAVE A SURPRISE FOR YOU"

And then order the detonation of an atom bomb several miles off the west coast in mid air. All of Japan would have **** their pants when they see this huge impressive explosion and flash, and millions of dead fish next morning washing ashore.

Next day, more leaflets. "SURRENDER NOW OR WE'LL DROP TWO MORE IN SOME RANDOM CITIES, AND MAYBE A THIRD ONE IN THE IMPERIAL PALACE."


What a waste of paper, and think of the FISH!

It's all speculation, and I'll speculate that it wouldn't have done a thing.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Has any single plane ever saved so many lives?
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2003, 09:47:06 PM »
Animal tell us all how many young American lives had to be  sacrificed in an invasion of Japan to satisfy your moral vanity some 60 years removed

But since you obviously dont care, let me just point out that over 100,000 thousand Japanese civilans alone died in the Okinawa invasion.

May I suggest you pull out a map and an encyclopedia to compare the size of Okinawa and her population to that of the main Japanese islands...

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2003, 09:47:11 PM »
No, the only part Animal forgot in his little analogy was the fact that the poor "incapicitated" burglar was still wildly thrashing the man's body with a machette.

If you seriously believe Japan's military wasn't prepared to fight to the death, do you seriously believe Hitler wasn't hell bent on genocide? You must.
-SW