Notice the increase of the WB's Style Defensive Manuevers?

[Nath-BDP]

hi

[Daff]

You mean, you really insist that a plane flying inverted got the same lift, drag and stall speed as upright?.

Daff

[Vermillion]

Another solution would be to model cumulative pilot fatigue, but I will start a seperate thread on that.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Citabria]

daff do a snap roll inverted with a p38 on the deck and try to push forward on the stick to get out of it.


inverted lift and drag is modelled

[Vermillion]

Citabria, is that due to asymetrical lift of the wings, or is it due to elevator travel limits in that direction? Asking because I don't know the answer.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Pyro]

 

Originally posted by Daff:
You mean, you really insist that a plane flying inverted got the same lift, drag and stall speed as upright?.

Not at all.  Do you know what the difference is?  You seem to have this preoccupation with inverted flight like it dumps out a magical dragchute or something when the plane is inverted.  We've been through this before, show me your math.  

BTW, what do you think the performance impact should be?  If you don't want to calculate, I'll gladly do that on what you think it should be.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[Nath-BDP]

How about if HTC modeled  engine oil so that when you fly inverted the engine would cut out after a certain amount of time? I would realy like to see this...

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BEAT DOWN POSSE

www.theregulators.org/bdp



Aces High Scenario Corps

[flakbait]

Yep. I had a Yak do 7 consecutive loops this morning, non-stop, trying to lose my 109-G2. He ended up with no engine after a blast of 7.92mm guns removed his radiator. This kinda stuff gets on my nerves to be honest. One reason I ran away from WBs was the horrid FM and stunts you could pull.

I don't pull that kind of stuff at all. Some odd maneuvers yes, but not 7 loops or endless scissoring. It's amazing some of the stuff you watch people pull. Especially when they see someone getting in position to kill them.

Personally, I'm ready to break out the Komet and give it to these types of pilots. It might be fast, but there's no way in Hell you'll kill a fighter with it. Why? Simple. Most any pilot checks his high-6 on a regular basis. One little turn and that Komet driver will lose his firing pass.

There are advantages to having an engine for more than 5 minutes

Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[sky_bax]

"How about if HTC modeled engine oil so that when you fly inverted the engine would cut out after a certain amount of time? I would realy like to see this..."

You mean in AH you can fly inverted endlessly without the engine locking up?

Bummer, never noticed it flying off-line.

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Skybax
328th Fighter Squadron
 www.352ndFighterGroup.com
Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney

[hitech]

Flakbait ablity to loop indefinatly is not that hard to do.

Most of the planes in the game have a sustanainable g of 2.5 - 3.5 range.

A loop is nothing more then a sustained turn. As long as you don't execed the planes max sustained g you won't loose any e doing a loop.

HiTech

[AKDejaVu]

 

How about if HTC modeled engine oil so that when you fly inverted the engine would cut out after a certain amount of time? I would realy like to see this...

You mean for the non-radials right?  Being an F4u dweeb.. I'd love to see this.

AKDejaVu

[AKDejaVu]

 

BTW, what do you think the performance impact should be? If you don't want to calculate, I'll gladly do that on what you think it should be.

Pyro,

It seems to me a plane would not have the same lift characteristics inverted.  Its thrust would be the same, but in order to acheive the same angle of assent it would have to be positioned in a manner that induces more drag.  

The coefficient you cite for the aircraft cannot be constant between inverted and normal flight.  In one case, you are relying on the lift generated by the wings, in the other case you are fighting it.  When fighting it, you increas drag by exposing more control surfaces to the violent air stream.

That seems to be logical to me.  Feel free to let me know why this wouldn't happen.  I'm somewhat curious about it.

AKDejaVu

[CptTrips]

DJ,

Pyro answered "Not at all." when Daff asked if he thought the lift/drag would be the same inverted.  

I think what he was saying is that those parameters were not ignored and are present in the model.

Now those forces, while not ignored, may be coming out miscalculated.  There have been FM bugs in the past, there will be in the future.  However, I think Pyro was asking if anyone had more rigorous evidence than gut intuition.  If anyone has some numbers I'm sure he'd be glad to look at them.  I think the kind of tests Wells does, where he methodically test out the models and provides hard data, would be the most useful input for Pyro to examine.

I'm sure that Pyro is willing to listen to any reasonable input.  I just think that there are some out there who come here from other sims, and aren't really interested in being part of the community,  that have "other" agendas.

Regards,
Wab


[This message has been edited by AKWabbit (edited 09-21-2000).]

[MiG Eater]

Pyro,

A suggested fix or deterence for the "porposing" problem:  The immediate results of multiple rapid and/or prolonged high negative G forces on a real pilot pilot is burst blood vessels in the eyes.   The "red-out" does not go away as quickly it does in the sim if you've subjected yourself to these forces repeatedly for any duration.  Granted, there are highly trained aerobatic pilots that practice every day to minimize this effect but the vast majority of combat pilots avoid Negative G's like the plague.  They HURT!

I'd propose a red-eye fatigue factor that gets progressively worse after a duration of high negative G forces or the repeated rapid onset of these forces.  Are there any flight surgeons out there for quantitative data?  Right now, there are few reasons not to porpoise like a wounded dolphin:  E-retention is good and the red-out goes away.

MiG

[AKDejaVu]

Just went up in the Training Arena with an F4u-1D.  I climbed inverted at 3.5k to 4k per minute with wep.. then 2k per min without.  I never did manage to stall it.

I was as low as 110 ias.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on airfoils or lift... but this seems wrong to me.  An inverted wing at low speeds still generating lift without really reducing climb or speed characteristics?

Explain how this is possible pyro.

Inverted, the wing is no longer a wing, but more of a massive control surface.  This is a totally inefficient way of providing lift and should not be this good at climbing (especially at low speeds).  It just doesn't seem right to me.

AKDejaVu