109e vs. Spit

[Sakai]

Reading Len Deighton's "Fighter" about the Battle of Britain and he details the competing aircraft and states that the 109e turned inside both the Hurricane and Spitfire--though by a small margin.

Is this accurate?  In AH I find the Hurri turns inside both the Spit and 109e and that the 109 is usually the poorest in a flat turn.

Sakai

[Guppy]

There was a paper published in the Aeronautical Journal (Feb. 2000) by two members of the University of Manchester's School of Engineering (Aerospace Division), which discussed the claims by Deighton.

They concluded that the calculations quoted by Deighton to support the claim that the 109 could turn tighter than the Hurricane or Spitfire were "in significant error." One major issue seems to have been that the calculations assumed a turning speed of 300 mph and used the following values for available G:

Me109E - 8.1
Hurricane I - 7.5
Spitfire I - 7.0

The authors estimated that sustaining such a turn would take about three times as much power as any of those aircraft actually had. A recalculation with revised estimates for the maximum sustainable turning speed (using 160 mph for the Hurricane and Spitfire, 180 mph for the 109 at about 2-3G each) resulted in the Hurricane having the tightest turn, with the Spitfire slightly worse and the 109 trailing by quite a bit.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Guppy
There was a paper published in the Aeronautical Journal (Feb. 2000) by two members of the University of Manchester's School of Engineering (Aerospace Division), which discussed the claims by Deighton.

They concluded that the calculations quoted by Deighton to support the claim that the 109 could turn tighter than the Hurricane or Spitfire were "in significant error." One major issue seems to have been that the calculations assumed a turning speed of 300 mph and used the following values for available G:

Me109E - 8.1
Hurricane I - 7.5
Spitfire I - 7.0

The authors estimated that sustaining such a turn would take about three times as much power as any of those aircraft actually had. A recalculation with revised estimates for the maximum sustainable turning speed (using 160 mph for the Hurricane and Spitfire, 180 mph for the 109 at about 2-3G each) resulted in the Hurricane having the tightest turn, with the Spitfire slightly worse and the 109 trailing by quite a bit.

Thank you so much!

I was thinking that the Hurri has been modeled as being a tighter turner and recall reading Spit pilots who mock fought Hurris saying the Hurri could easily out turn them.  Now, that is not all there is to dogfighting, but in low scrum flat turns, yes.

Thanks

Sakai

[Shane]

i'd agree with the assessment (revised) as being comparable to what we see in AH... however with the 109e having a nice engine, a little judicious use of the vert in yo-yo's can overcome a flat-turning hurri-dweeb or at least keep the 109 alive til some help hopefully arrives, preferrably axis.

[RTR]

I read quite a while ago (and i wish i could remember where), that one of the reasons the emil would not turn with the spit was due to it being structurally weak. The worry (justified or not, I don't know) was that under high "g" loading the wings would fold, and as a result the emil pilots would not try to get the best out of the airframe (IE what it was published to be able to do).
Anyone know if there is any truth to this?
RTR

[funkedup]

I think Deighton must have been playing WWIIOL.

[F4UDOA]

I don't know what it is about posting documents to show or prove a point that makes me so happy. I just feel all fuzzy:D

There is no mention of model but the date of the test is 1940 for you can durive models from that.

[mw]

Deighton had it wrong.  Check HERE

[GScholz]

Originally posted by RTR
I read quite a while ago (and i wish i could remember where), that one of the reasons the emil would not turn with the spit was due to it being structurally weak. The worry (justified or not, I don't know) was that under high "g" loading the wings would fold, and as a result the emil pilots would not try to get the best out of the airframe (IE what it was published to be able to do).
Anyone know if there is any truth to this?
RTR

Yes AFAIK the 109E pilots were cautious about pulling high G's. Whether this was a justified fear I don't know.

[Urchin]

I believe I've read that the 109 pilots were afraid to "get the most" out of their planes because they would become frightened when the leading edge slats opened.  From what I understand they made one hellacious bang, and the plane would shudder like you'd just been hit.  I've also read that with the slats opened the 109E could almost hang with a Spit I in a dogfight, it seems to be pretty close in AH.

[Guppy35]

Quoting a former Lancaster pilot turned aviation author.

"As a historian,Len Deighton writes great fiction.

His B of B book is not considered one of the better efforts on that particular campaign

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

Len Deighton's book makes quite a read, so does his "blood Tears and Folly", but this particular bit he simply has wrong.
I don't really know why. His graph is wrong, and against both tests and actual combat experience.
Read Jeffrey Quill's "Spitfire" for a better account and comparison

[GScholz]

Originally posted by mw
Deighton had it wrong.  Check HERE

I'm not questioning that Deighton was wrong, but the test report you posted is utterly biased as their conclusions reveal:

The Me 109 is inferior as a fighter to the Hurricane or Spitfire.

Now the Spit is one thing, I don't think it was superior but rather equal. However that they found the 109E to be inferior to the Hurricane is outrageous.

[mw]

GScholz: Your thinking and outrage are no concern of mine.  Take it up with the British Testing Establishment.  They're still around.  A hurri would have a rather easy time of it in a close in 1 v 1 dogfight with a 109 under 10,000 feet.  In other circumstances it may well be bested.  Actually, come to think of it, I have a couple of first hand comparitive trials reports of Hurri 1 vrs 109E.  Yes, the British thought the Hurri pretty much owned the 109 in a knife fight.  The conclusions of the Aeroplane and Armament Establishment (A&AEE) and Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) are interesting and worthy of note.  Dismiss them if it pleases you.

[kreighund]

Is the Tempest Testing site still around?