Author Topic: 109e vs. Spit  (Read 913 times)

Offline AtmkRstr

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109e vs. Spit
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2003, 09:24:45 PM »
somthing to keep in mind is fuel loads.  The 109s would have had about half, and the spits and hurries would have been closer to full fuel during the BoB.

Offline Ecliptik

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109e vs. Spit
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2003, 01:21:47 AM »
Not neccessarily.  There is no reason to take off with full tanks if you're just scrambling to intercept incoming bandits in your area.  It's more logical that RAF fighters would have launched with partially full tanks to reduce weight and increase climb rate and combat performance.

Offline GScholz

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109e vs. Spit
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2003, 02:49:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
GScholz: Your thinking and outrage are no concern of mine.  Take it up with the British Testing Establishment.  They're still around.  A hurri would have a rather easy time of it in a close in 1 v 1 dogfight with a 109 under 10,000 feet.  In other circumstances it may well be bested.  Actually, come to think of it, I have a couple of first hand comparitive trials reports of Hurri 1 vrs 109E.  Yes, the British thought the Hurri pretty much owned the 109 in a knife fight.  The conclusions of the Aeroplane and Armament Establishment (A&AEE) and Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) are interesting and worthy of note.  Dismiss them if it pleases you.


Touchy, aren't we? The 109E outclassed the Hurricane in every aspect of performance except turning. If they conclude that the Hurricane was superior to the 109E then they must be of the opinion that turning performance is the only aspect that counts in aerial combat. Strange then how every fighter in WWII got faster and heavier as the war progressed, as opposed to getting better at turning. War is not a 1 on 1 duel. War is all about teamwork.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Kweassa

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109e vs. Spit
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2003, 04:07:14 AM »
Quote
Not neccessarily. There is no reason to take off with full tanks if you're just scrambling to intercept incoming bandits in your area. It's more logical that RAF fighters would have launched with partially full tanks to reduce weight and increase climb rate and combat performance.


 Not likely. Since they didn't have AWACS in the era, analysis of what the radar suggests is largely based on only heading, altitude, and speed of the target object. It is true, that some sorts of data are better provided by radar operators than the 'dot dar', but still, they didn't get real-time updates.

 This would mean planes would have to search the directed areas. There could be decoys and clever ploys to fool radar, and once it became clear, planes would have to redirect themselves immediately to the next point - something, which is impossible if they are fueld up for only one search&destroy engagement in a local area.

 The defenders are usually the 'waiters'. Passive local defense as seen in the BoB require planes to be ready in the air, and relocate themselves according to the attacker's moves. Thus, in a sense, the attacking side with precise mission directives would have exact requirements on the amount of fuel needed(which was still too short, in the case of the Bf109s), but the defenders would never know whether or not a certain amount of fuel would be sufficient or not - thus, it is likely that carrying maximum amount of fuel available was mandatory.

 Even in AH, only small limited engagements and low-alt furballs are likely to be fought with something like 50% fuel. For instance, in a furball near a CV, I'd take a F6F-5 or a Seafire with just about 50% fuel.

 However, if one looks in a wider aspect, and prepares to defend the CV by means of CAP, then I would take the F4U-1 with larger internal fuel load with 100%, since I never know exactly when the enemy would show up.

Offline Angus

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109e vs. Spit
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2003, 05:12:39 AM »
GScolz: The Hurricane also out-rolled the 109, but using high-speed and group tactics, there was not much of contest.
However, the 109E was still in service when the Hurry IIC came along......now that is a bit tougher
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GScholz

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109e vs. Spit
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2003, 07:20:59 AM »
Yes the Emil served a long time. First as a frontline fighter and after being phased out by the Fritz in 1941 it served as a fighter bomber on the Russian front.

The Hurri IIC is still markedly slower than the Emil, although it could climb just as well up to 10k.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Sakai

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109e vs. Spit
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2003, 07:48:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ecliptik
Not neccessarily.  There is no reason to take off with full tanks if you're just scrambling to intercept incoming bandits in your area.  It's more logical that RAF fighters would have launched with partially full tanks to reduce weight and increase climb rate and combat performance.


Not in WWII, nope.  Who would take a Spit up with a partial tank to scour the channel coastline for 109s and 111s?  Not I said the little red hen.

Sakai
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