BBS sampling/opinion re CT

[Guppy35]

Still a newbie, but I've flown in CT a few times now and found it much more enjoyable then the pork it or take it of MA.  

Not exactly sure on how the points/perks bit works since I've never been able to get worked up about points or flying uber planes, but why not eliminate the points etc from the CT?

With the emphasis on points & perks in the MA, it becomes  almost against the rules to dive back in to the fight for fear of losing your perks.

Last night I was dying often in an F4F but having a blast.  Ironically, I flew better in the MA later when I got back into the planes I usually enjoy flying.  Having to work at the F4F made the others that much easier.

CT in that regard can in a sense become the learning ground for those who in particular like the ACM aspect of the game.

I'd minimize the base capture, pork it possibilities too, unless it really contributes to the set up in some regards.

I suppose it ends up segregating the ACM guys from the pork and capture crowd, but I don't know if thats such a bad thing anyway as from reading the boards that seems to be where the biggest divisions are.

As for the dar/icon stuff.  It seemed to me last night that the fight was centralized enough that those were not really factors for finding the fight.

Whatever the case, I had a great time and am planning on dropping back in tonight

Dan/Slack

[Arlo]

Dan. I think you were doing pretty good. Maybe I'll see you up tonight. Hopefully without the .... errr .... distractions. hehe

[Shane]

the easiest way to make base capture possible, but more difficult, would be to increase the # of drunks needed to take a base from 10 to say 15 or 20 or even 25....  it'd have to be well coordinated then, no easy milking, unless by 2-3 people and unopposed.

i think you could even have a time limit on the drunks.

the biggest no-no about base captures is resetting the arena.... it hoses the planesets and requires a manual repair by some CT staffer.

but yeah it basically boils down to familarity and going where the #'s are.  i think a CT population of 70-120 can be very action packed...  it can be even with 30 on, but it all depends on *who* those 30 are, or rather their motivations for using CT.

were it up to me, i'd have MA dar settings with increased # drunks to take bases and slightly reduced regen times with 1/2 MA-strengthed fleets (to avoid mobile ack battery sitting on the beach - something that is already done, both the weakened fleet and beach parking).

there are a lot of way cool CT maps, and generally things are fairly close. the only thing that is hard to regulate is *how* people fly and what they *do* in CT.

icon ranges... i can deal with the short icon ranges, it's nooo biggie and keeps you on your toes.

fuel burn is also generally slower than MA, so you can get places even with 25% for the most part.

[jamusta]

I want so much to be able to like the CT but.........
its boring cant find a fight...numbers to low...plus to me its no different than the MA. Same thing happens in CT that happens in MA with the only difference being axis allies set up with matching plane set.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Innominate
The radar is somewhat annoying, finding a fight can be too much of a pain, but its usually not that big of a deal as long as there is bardar.

The planesets though are something that bothers me.  A good setup in the CT is a lot of fun(e.g. finrus), but too often it seems they try and push for setups which are badly supported by the AH planeset. (e.g. early war setups with the japanese having a ki67)

Set-up bias annoys the hell out of me. Including the Ki-67 in the Slot set-up is outrageous considering that it's faster than any fighter in the plane set. Naturally, you find guys who fly the Ki-67 in formations as a battlestar hoping someone will attack... Why not use the Ju 88?  I'll tell ya why, it doesn't have the Nippon rising sun on the wings and fuselage and a 20mm gun turret. Yet, if the P-40E or F4U-1 is in the plane set, you can bet it'll be confined to some atoll 6 sectors away from the fight in the interest of "balance".
Naturally, "balance" really means "give the Japanese every possible break" while tossing the Allied players a bone they can't chew. Of course it does depend on which CT staffer does the set-up, some are more concerned with historical accuracy than "balance".

Is there ever a late-war PAC set-up without a gozillion N1K2s buzzing around? Odd because no N1K2-J unit every deployed outside of Japan, and I can find reference to only one N1K1-J unit that deployed to the PI, where it was obliterated.

When we see the Burma set-up we see A6M2s up the wazoo. Yet, no Zeros were in the theater during 1941-42. Now, we'll hear arguments that the Zero is substituting for the Ki-43. Well, the Ki-43 wasn't in theater until late May of '42 in any numbers, and it was markedly inferior to the A6M2. Most Japanese Army Air units were flying the Ki-27 Nate which offered performance notably below the Ki-43. Instead we have a cannon armed fighter rather than the JAAF planes with two little 7.7mm MGs. Hell, the D3A Val comes closer than the Zero does. And where is the P-40E, which constituted the bulk of AVG fighters by July (and were arriving in early April)? It's nowhere to be found. Sure sounds like balance to me.

Aside from these issues, there's some other issues that annoy me. For example: I logged on during the most recent Luftwaffe/Soviet set-up (a good set-up in general) and found several jerks vulching a field. I upped an La-7 and paid a visit. One by one they went home after shooting out their guns. One by one they came back and I killed them when they did. Finally after I had shot down four different guys, they stopped. So I landed. 10 minutes later, 6 of them come back... Scared to fight alone they had to first gather a gang of dweebs. Pathetic but completely the norm in the CT. I can think of only a handful of guys willing to venture out alone. Shane, Eskimo, Eagler, Blondy and Yeager come to mind, but there are a few others too. However, the majority fly only in packs (when they're not milkrunning undefended fields).

Gangbanging, vulching and milkrunning are becoming far more common. It used to be that we would let a disabled plane  wobble on home simply because he had fought the good fight and there was nothing to be proved by finishing his wrecked fighter. That doesn't happen anymore. Guys go out of their way to chase down a cripple.

Then we have the real issue of balance. 26 Allies, 8 Axis, or 19 Axis, 6 Allied. A few guys will switch sides, but most will not. Many are in squads, so where the squad is, they stay. Naturally with such lopsided numbers the few getting repeatedly ganged simply log off.

Think of the CT in marketing terms, if your product was what people wanted, you'd sell a lot more of them. The CT is the Nash Rambler of Aces High. It doesn't appeal to many buyers because you haven't figured out what the buyers want. There's nothing wrong with being the Nash Rambler in a world of Chevys and Fords, just so you understand that your core buyer base will never grow in proportion to the total number of potential buyers unless you are willing to do what is required to compete with the big guys (IE: MA and SEA).

As it is, the CT has its dedicated core, but few people come in and stay. Don't get me wrong, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means that the percentage of MA to CT players will remain where it is.

I still enjoy the CT, but only as a diversion from the MA.

My regards,

Widewing

[Halo]

Excellent thread.  I find myself flying CT more than MA because you usually find better pilots and players in a smaller setting with more equal matchups based as much as possible on various historical events.

Much better chance of having good one on one duels with the best pilots and learning from them.  Usually more cavalier sportsmanship, saluting opponents who exit damaged or low on fuel or ammo after a robust fight.

I look forward to Aces High eventually having an even greater assortment of rides to choose from to permit much better matchups.  The most obvious mismatch, which I have complained mightily about until finally ignoring it, is the Ki-67 in early war scenarios.

Best attraction about CT is the ease of grabbing whatever and start cruising -- it doesn't take long to find an opponent who'll deserve your full attention.

[Batz]

Including the Ki-67 in the Slot set-up is outrageous considering that it's faster than any fighter in the plane set.

The boston is faster then the ki-67 below 15k, carries a heavier bomb load and has fixed forward firing guns. Complaining about the ki-67 is comical. up to 15k the ki 67 is less then 10 mph faster then the f4f. The boston is at max 40 mph faste rhten the a6m2 belwo 15k. I see where you feel its unfair.

You have np flying around in the wrong version of the sbd or tbm.

A ki-67 is much easier to kill with 50cals then a boston with type 99 mk 1s. The ki-67 is mauch easier to catch.

For the most part the ijn planes are all earlier models and the us are all later. Put a niki in folks cry. The ki-61 we have is the slowest variant. So you may want you f4u-1 with its 50 speed advantage but dont say the Japs get all the advantage. Those are and have been the worst setups and the least populated.

Its those kinds of disparity that make the ct crap.

They even used to to run a6m5s vrs p51b, all the hogs jugs p38l b17 and b26. So you you dotn know crap about who gets what advantage.

[Innominate]

Originally posted by Batz
The boston is faster then the ki-67 below 15k, carries a heavier bomb load and has fixed forward firing guns. Complaining about the ki-67 is comical. up to 15k the ki 67 is less then 10 mph faster then the f4f.

You have np flying around in the wrong version of the sbd or tbm.

A ki-67 is much easier to kill with 50cals then a boston with type 99 mk 1s. The ki-67 is mauch easier to catch.

The japanese planeset is vastly understocked, which makes pac setups especially tough.  

The bombload is mostly irrelevent, not all that much bombing is done in the CT, the problem is when bombers are used as gunships.

The boston has some of the same problems of the ki67, however it lacks the lethality.  A few setups ago it was mainly P40B's vs A6M2's.  The Ki67 was the best 'fighter' in the arena, and I easily landed three 10 kill sorties in a row just plowing through the furball at full speed.  

I have to disagree about the ki67 being easier to kill though, the boston might take more shots to kill, but you don't have that 20mm cannon blasting away at you.  The bostons rear guns are barely better than useless. (Esp since its missing its ventral gun)

As for the TBM and SBD being late war models, it doesnt matter because they're STILL outclassed by the fighters opposing them by a huge margin.

I'm curious though, in the real world, did the P-40E dominate the zero as completly as it does here?  Or is there something wrong with the modeling or just an effect of the gameplay which makes it that way?

[Batz]

if we had a betty it would be just as well defended as the peggy.

So its not really the peggy thats the problem then.

50 cals kill peggys easily but if you get hit by the 20mm you will die fast. The same thing would happen with the betty.

Not everyone is an ackstar so you reap what you sow.

The boston doesnt need much protection when it max out at about 40mph faster then the only japanese fighter.

The sbd and tbm have better guns then the a6m2 and see the in furballs all the time.

This just a case of a few allied types gettin a taste of their own medicine and not liking it. Oh well butch up, it aint that bad.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Batz
The boston is faster then the ki-67 below 15k, carries a heavier bomb load and has fixed forward firing guns. Complaining about the ki-67 is comical. up to 15k the ki 67 is less then 10 mph faster then the f4f. The boston is at max 40 mph faste rhten the a6m2 belwo 15k. I see where you feel its unfair.

You have np flying around in the wrong version of the sbd or tbm.

A ki-67 is much easier to kill with 50cals then a boston with type 99 mk 1s. The ki-67 is mauch easier to catch.

For the most part the ijn planes are all earlier models and the us are all later. Put a niki in folks cry. The ki-61 we have is the slowest variant. So you may want you f4u-1 with its 50 speed advantage but dont say the Japs get all the advantage. Those are and have been the worst setups and the least populated.

Its those kinds of disparity that make the ct crap.

They even used to to run a6m5s vrs p51b, all the hogs jugs p38l b17 and b26. So you you dotn know crap about who gets what advantage.

I have no idea why you believe everyone else is ignorant. However, because my Bullchit detector is pegged, I'm going to respond to your rambling anyway.

What's wrong with the Ki-67? Use your brain and think, why is it in the plane set? Because the Japanese need a bomber? Buzzzz... Wrong answer. It's there for exactly the reason I stated. So that it can be flown just to draw up fighters to pop with the 20mm. If the Japanese need a bomber, why not give them the Ju 88? It hauls 3 times the ordnance, and is capable of 300 mph (much faster than many JAAF and IJN bombers). Why incorporate a late-war bomber if not for its battlestar ability?

As to the Boston, it probably should be replaced by the B-17 which WAS in service and in theater in 1942-43 with the 13th AF. In fact, they had four Groups of B17s, one of B-24s and one of B-25s. A-20s were assigned largely to the 5th AF. Now before you start to whine about only the B-17G being available instead of the B-17F, let me remind you that the only significant difference was the addition of a power chin turret. G models were actually slower and didn't climb as well.  Surely the A6M2 can catch the Fortress.... One other point, the Boston has nearly useless defensive guns and HTC decided to eliminate the ventral gun. Not only that but those two .303s in the nose are useless as the rear guns. Clearly useful only as a bomber and not a battlestar.

As to the SBD and TBM, what significant differences can you cite? A few horsepower in the SBD-5, that barely offsets the extra weight? Likewise the TBM has 97% commonality with the TBF. Not especially good examples.

Now, if the F4F-4 seems to be too late in comparision to the A6M2, then use the FM-2 which had virtually the same speed, climb and guns as the F4F-3, but the FM-2 lacks the two stage supercharger that gave the F4F-3 better performance above 15k.

The Ki-61 we have may be the slowest, but its also the lightest and most agile. Besides, the Ki-61-II was a 1944 fighter and only 374 were built.

As to the F4U-1, it was in theater in early 1943. The best the IJN could offer was the A6M3, which was barely better than the A6M2. But what the hell, I'm generous, give the Axis the A6M5, not that it will make any difference.

Face facts, by 1943 Japan had no front line fighters that could compete with the U.S. hardware.

By the way, the P-51B only saw service against Japan in the CBI. When the Mustang did deploy to the SWPA and PTO, it was the P-51D and P-51K (some P-51Hs did go operational during the last week of July, 1945).

Personally, I believe that historical plane sets draw small crowds because the majority of the CT Axis gang haven't the stomach to fight against the same adversaries as Japan faced. Hell, I'll fight Corsairs and P-40Es with a Zero! And I won't whine about it either. I've flown entire MA tours flying only early-war fighters. It was challenging, but I still did better that 99% of the guys flying the late-war rockets. I guess some people don't want to be challenged, they'd rather fly the Niki and HO everything in sight.

The Okinawa event in the SEA drew large numbers, and it had an unbalanced, historical plane-set. See, if you provide a truly historical arena, people will come. As I see it, the CT promises a historical set-up. but doesn't deliver on that promise due to the gerrymandering of the plane set to make sure the Axis has parity. Parity is a myth, and it detracts from the historical feel of the game. People come in expecting one thing and get another. That's why most don't come back a second time.

Like I said, if your product was of any special value, it would sell a hell of a lot better than it does. If you want more people to fly there, then you're going to have to make changes to entice them in. So far, all I hear is people working at justifying the status quo.

My regards,

Widewing

[Batz]

so you are only for subs when it suits you?

when the only 2 other bombers the japanese have are the val and kate it easy for you to say so what if our sbds and tbms are not "quite right".

The fact is the peggy is it. Its all there is. If you dont wanna get popped with 20mm learn not to attack where that gun can hit you or leave umm alone, or continue your whine. If your whining because of the peggys guns then the betties are damn close. So its just a whine over being killed not about the plane. Under 15k the peggy is but about 10mph faster then the f4f.

With the boston's speed advantage theres little need for defensive guns. Plus the type 99 mk 1s in ah are weak and limited. It takes something to bring down a boston. 50s will shred a peggy.

Its not the guys in zekes and ki 61s ya see runnin. Just some of umm arent going to be bothered chasing the runners around.

You are just gettin a little taste of what normally happens to the other side and your panties are bunched. Like I said butch up, you'll be ok in the morning.

[Easyscor]

In one paragraph you implied you are an Allied flyer and in the same breath charge the Axis guys with not having “the stomach to fight against the same adversaries as Japan faced.”  This on top of the fact that the Axis are usually out numbered 2 to 1 in the PTO setups I’ve seen lately.

This thread started out as an opinion pole on the CT, and by far, numbers and difficulty finding a fight is the message that keeps coming through as the major problems but you suggest, “if you provide a truly historical arena, people will come.”  I couldn’t disagree more.  The average player isn’t a history buff and doesn’t’ care about service dates or deployment dates, or attrition, he just wants to fly the best equipment the arena provides and find a good fight.  Without some judicious balancing, and maybe some blatant tampering, the CT would become all Allied and without people willing to fly Axis, there won’t be any fun for anybody.

Many people might agree with you but I think the biggest draw of the CT is a balanced plane set and better fights with a historical feel, and I don’t think the CT could survive long with strict compliance to historical matchups.

[lazs2]

deja said... "There's also another element in the CT that somewhat kills it. No matter what the matchup, one planeset will have specific strengths quite different than the other side. It's not as much of a balance issue, rather a "playing to your strengths" issue. It's just not much fun when both sides have such a finite set of strengths and weaknesses. You always know exactly what you're playing into. "

yep... allied vs axis is a drag after a very short time..  if there is no furball the planes simply play to their strengths which means..... same ol boring fights in short order... if you can find em.

The PTO setup currently running is working because everyone is concentrated in a very small area (close fields) and it is full of ex MA, pizza sick vets who want to furball.   The sides are even cause in a furball.... the zekes advantages over the P40b and F4F is moot.  

And yes... the FM2 would make a very good F4f3 substitute... It is not as fast or good climbing as the -3 but it does have more armor (tougher).
lazs

[YUCCA]

I just started getting into it when the current map got up.  I dont like the map and i dont like the planeset.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Batz
so you are only for subs when it suits you?

when the only 2 other bombers the japanese have are the val and kate it easy for you to say so what if our sbds and tbms are not "quite right".

The fact is the peggy is it. Its all there is. If you dont wanna get popped with 20mm learn not to attack where that gun can hit you or leave umm alone, or continue your whine. If your whining because of the peggys guns then the betties are damn close. So its just a whine over being killed not about the plane. Under 15k the peggy is but about 10mph faster then the f4f.

With the boston's speed advantage theres little need for defensive guns. Plus the type 99 mk 1s in ah are weak and limited. It takes something to bring down a boston. 50s will shred a peggy.

Its not the guys in zekes and ki 61s ya see runnin. Just some of umm arent going to be bothered chasing the runners around.

You are just gettin a little taste of what normally happens to the other side and your panties are bunched. Like I said butch up, you'll be ok in the morning.

Batz, either you are being deliberately obtuse, or your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. If the latter is the case, I suggest you sue whatever school you attended to recover the wasted tuition. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former is the case.

I have repeatedly demonstrated that I have no issue with substitution provided that substitution accurately portrays a missing aircraft in the plane set.

The existing SBD and TBM offer no significant improvement over the SBD-3 or TBF. So stop raising that red herring of an argument, as it has no validity.

Secondly, including the Ki-67 is pure gerrymandering. One could easily substitute the Ju 88 if the Axis needs a bomber. It's far more effective as a bomber than the Ki-67. We all know that the Ki-67 is included as an ackstar.

Furthermore, I maintain about an 80/1 K/D against bombers, so I don't have any need for advice, thanks anyway.

I have also stated that the Boston doesn't belong in the slot plane set either. B-17s and B-25s (13th AF) flew in that theater.

Your last paragraph illustrates my frustration perfectly. It really doesn't matter what anyone wants, what may draw more players or what may generate more interest. You indicate that you will create the set-up the way YOU want it regardless of what anyone has to say. That attitude will not bring more players into the CT.

Remember Shane's original question? "if you're not a regular Combat Theatre player, why not? what keeps you out of CT or from coming back on a regular basis?"

People attempt to answer the question and your manner of defending the status quo merely reinforces perceptions.

What the hell are you going to do when AH2 is released? I expect the CT player base to dwindle to a fraction of what it is, assuming HTC doesn't simply close it.

I suspect that the CT will be redundent. Why? Just read the AH2 FAQ: "Tour of Duty is a cross between a historical WWII simulation and military RPG. What is so different about it is that it’s not simply an Axis vs Allies free-for-all using WWII equipment in a geographic WWII setting. ToD puts you in the role of a WWII combat pilot (of course the emphasis is on air-combat, but ground combat will also be included at times) with all the responsibilities and restrictions that comes with it. You are not just an operator of military equipment, you are a soldier or airman in the military. That means that everything you do is part of a unit and part of a mission. There is no free-lancing, you can’t just select a plane and head off to exchange lead with the closest enemy."

For those of you who have argued that an accurately setup historical arena (even with an unbalanced plane set) will not draw in more players, take note that HTC is convinced that you're wrong.

My regards,

Widewing