Author Topic: after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........  (Read 989 times)

Offline hazed-

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« on: September 02, 2003, 06:01:58 AM »
after reading the inteveiw at http://www.simhq.com I have a few worries id like to bring up for a possible response from HTC to deal with my concerns:

HTC:'We plan to use a type of officer evaluation report where commanders would rate the performance of their flight leaders who in turn would rate the performance of the pilots in their flight.'

What happens when players with a good rank take a dislike to a player who is flying with them for whatever reason and then gives a bad evaluation regardless of how good the player performs? what is there to stop deliberate attempts to keep a certain player down in rank?
Personally I really like the idea of taking orders etc but i do worry that some could use their higher rank to pick on players they dont like.

HTC:'Players don’t create missions. The missions come down from HQ a.k.a. the host. In planning an attack, the best mission plan would be one with no enemy contact. However, that would make for a pretty dull mission and we don’t want that. So the missions are orchestrated to give an almost certain probability of enemy contact while preserving the ability to be surprised and have to react. '

Could we possibly be able to make slight adaptions to missions (once you get the rank of course), maybe like changing the altitudes or particular target at the set AI target. i.e. define fuel or ammo or barracks etc but keep the missions essentially the same.Couldnt this give players a bit more input and still not disturb the setup from you guys to make sure there is enemy contact? say for instance we change the route to the target but the target is still the same and Ai defenders will at least be at the target and its a hit or miss whether you meet more on the way to targets.Im thinking something like the AI gives mission then if you have enough rank you can edit it to your own choice of alt and maybe set the route a little different.Also change the loadout, maybe you prefer rockets to bombs etc. This could be enough to satisfy the mission builders i think.

HTC:' The Squad format of the main arena won’t be a part of ToD. '

I was a little dissapointed by this but then i had a thought which may solve this problem HTC. How about you go for even more reality and make any individual base a squadron base. Players would be able to choose or buy a base (if perks are still in AH2) and if they pay enough they are able to set the name of tht bases squadron. For instance base A39 is originally RAF 111 Squadron. Players from a current squad can decide A36 is for them, they pay some 100 perks each and the player with the highest rank in that squad (and has flown from that base the most, this prevents other players of high rank deliberately trying to change the current squad) can then change the name.
Then all the players from that squad fly out from this base. All players from that squad , each time they launch, adds up to the squadron use of that base. If they defend it and do successfull missions (set by Ai) from it it adds more and more to their use total. That base then in effect becomes their personal base. Others can use it freely still but generally this i think would more than satisfy the squad types and its quite realistic.
I got this idea because in JG54 we used to , on the uterus map, defend and hold the A54 base on the island. We deemed it our personal base and fought to defend it accoringly. It was great fun.
I hope this gives you guys an idea you like HTC :)

HTC:'There will be a lot of things that are either different or won’t carry over from Classic to ToD. For example, killshooter (reflective damage for friendly fire) will remain in Classic but won’t be in ToD. Instead, there will be a court martial system.'

I get worried here. What if you are about to take off and in pops a total newbie who when he spawns shoots and kills your player as you launch? what if he kills almost an entire mission as they taxy to launch? what if he takes off with a bomb and turns around and drops it on all the others taking off? Hes court marshalled sure but if he doesnt care what happens to his avatar this isnt going to stop him is it?
Again I love the idea of court marshals etc to punish you when you do something wrong, a drop in rank or whatever seems great but i worry about those players who dont care about the loss of rank or indeed enjoy ruining other peoples fun deliberately. Ho is this going to be handled? If you are going to appoint a 'player monitor' who can ban a player for deliberate misconduct what happens if this is abused and a player picks on another?
What happens if we do the right thing and drop our bombs on a target but another player who doesnt want to play by the rules flies low into the target and your bombs kill him? do you get punished for his stupidity? I know this sounds far fetched but honestly i have died many times in MA by dropping on a hanger and somone unseen under you straffes past and is within the blast radius and boom you die to killshooter. In AH2 it seems i will get a court marshall even though it isnt really your own fault.
Im a little worried by the amount of damage a player can do if he deliberately intends to harm others enjoyment. Whats to stop the guy on a 2 week trial behaving this way ?

ok thats it for now, btw thanks for the interveiw and it all sounds very promising indeed. Just like i say i have a few worries and would love to hear a few replies on it if possible (time permitting of course)


Offline ramzey

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2003, 07:57:04 AM »
Hazed we discuss that allmost 9 months ago, search for Batz post's

ramzey

Offline Kweassa

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2003, 09:20:00 AM »
Quote
What happens when players with a good rank take a dislike to a player who is flying with them for whatever reason and then gives a bad evaluation regardless of how good the player performs? what is there to stop deliberate attempts to keep a certain player down in rank?


 Evaluation goes both ways. Although those in lower rank do not have a means of systematic evaluation at their hands, people still can see which leader is worth following, and which leader is an prettythanghat. If such an unworthy leader keeps leading missions, people are not going to follow him.


Quote
I get worried here. What if you are about to take off and in pops a total newbie who when he spawns shoots and kills your player as you launch? what if he kills almost an entire mission as they taxy to launch? what if he takes off with a bomb and turns around and drops it on all the others taking off? Hes court marshalled sure but if he doesnt care what happens to his avatar this isnt going to stop him is it?


 The pilot training is there to help, so even the newbiest of all newbies at least learn what's a "Do" and what's a "Don't Do". As I recall, the training is mandatory for all who enter the ToD. So, such an instance happens, and I imagine he will be punished for it. If it happens in multiple occasions, indicating that it is not a mistake, I have a distinct feeling somebody is going to make him pay bigtime. Besides, people who do those things are gonna be shunned from the other pilots. Somebody like that is never going to be allowed to join a mission I am leading, if I ever go up that rank.


Quote
What happens if we do the right thing and drop our bombs on a target but another player who doesnt want to play by the rules flies low into the target and your bombs kill him? do you get punished for his stupidity? I know this sounds far fetched but honestly i have died many times in MA by dropping on a hanger and somone unseen under you straffes past and is within the blast radius and boom you die to killshooter. In AH2 it seems i will get a court marshall even though it isnt really your own fault.


 Try thinking in a broader aspect. There might be a courtmarshall, but in that case, you've got your witnesses. If somebody disregards an order to stay away from bombed targets and gets killed, its his funeral, not yours.

Offline mos

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2003, 11:36:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
its his funeral, not yours. [/B]

Nice choice of words.  :D

I'm really looking forward to this, I think it's going to be a blast.  I love the furball as much as the next pilot, but I never pass up the chance to fly a mission involving a mess of B17s.  It just looks so damn cool.  Being able to do that at any time is going to so be the win.  Not to mention, intercepting those messes of bombers.  ;)

Offline Batz

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2003, 11:43:26 AM »
1 player who doesnt like you wont out weigh the number of folks who will. Rank is a product of mission success. The reason this was requested (it was players who brought this issue up) is what if you get some guy who ups and doesnt follow the mission or hides from the fight or starts tk'ing. Or a little "hitler" flight leader eyc.. The missions need a structure so that they function and folks work together. Much like a flight leader in an event. My suggestion was a "vote" system like in most fps games system messgae would be "Vote: Kick Batz" "Press f1 for yes or F2 For no" etc...The you would need a majority or super majority to kick that player. It would have no effect on rank it would just remove him from the mission scoring. Anything or anyone he kills has no effect on his score or the person he kills. Hopefully he would just rtb.

The way it seems is that its a 2 way street, players eval fls and fls eval players. How much impact that has on rank if any is unkown. It may be like a leader eval. Folks must maintain a min eval score to be able to lead missions etc....



Missions need to be set by the host or you will get rank potatos making milkrun missions. If missions are player designed then the likely of an opposite mission being created to counter your mission will be slim. So you may end up in a mission with no enemy in an area. The mission themselves most likely will be made similiar to what is made on the mission planner. The folks in the mission or mission leader would be able to adjust alt etc...

However, if missions arent flown according to the waypoints then you reduce the odds of contact between sides and it will quickly become "not fun". So there needs to be some restriction like following the waypoints.

Squad "Format" it could very well mean no squads or it could mean just a different "format". We dont know yet.

No killshooter is a main stay in scenarios and for the most part works well. You have more a chance of getting shoot down or shooting down a friendly in a bomber then a fighter. If you have a group of guys in a mission that are working together to successfully complete the mission then it will be unlike the main where everyone is on there own trying to get a kill.  The odds are reduced in regards to killshooter.

But as a pilot you need to pay attention to where you put yourself. SA isnt just knowing where the bad guy is. You would need to know when to break off and when to drop in on a badguy and communicate with your "mission mates" so that you avoid tks. No killshooter wont work in the main, it does in events and should work ok in ToD. Team kills should be scored as a death. If I kill tk some one I oughta lose the 100 (or what ever) points or maybe split them -50 for the the guy who shoots his teammate and -50 for the guy who gets tk'd.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2003, 11:48:30 AM by Batz »

Offline Batz

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2003, 11:50:28 AM »
oops i forgot about the "court marshall"  So tk'rs may get demoted through court marshall or lose points etc

Offline Squire

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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2003, 08:15:22 PM »
"SA isnt just knowing where the bad guy is. You would need to know when to break off and when to drop in on a badguy and communicate with your "mission mates" ".

Thats whats missing from the arenas, the sense that the above is important to begin with, and that failure means real failure, not just "oh well we are rolling again for A34" after losing 30 planes already in near suicidal attacks to "close" it, and those rolling "base defense" and being shot down repeatedly.

If AH2:TOD can get rid of mass vulching and suicide lemmings, and add some accountability for a/c loss, it will be a giant step forward in play quality, the level of which is usually only found now in SEA events, or "boxed" sim play.
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Offline hazed-

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2003, 09:26:43 PM »
guys i think you are missing the point a little. You like me are 'into' this sort of set up. I know kweassa and batz from seeing them on the BB and both of you are like me, a realism freako's.:)

My point is what about the guy who ISNT 'into' the idea and decides it would be more fun to disrupt play? Is there the possibility of banning for continued misconduct? then how do you decide if it is deliberate.and what is too much misconduct?

Like i said earlier if i accidently kill friendlies does it add up and up until eventually my friendly kill tally gets me banned? What about those players who are new to the game etc? when they ruin a couple of guys clean record by shooting them does the server restore the clean record to the peron killed? how would it know who is actively seeking to ruin things and those who do it by accident?

As for the lecture on SA etc I really dont get the relevance. what about when you are on a runway and youre shot on the floor. It wont matter how good your SA is, youre still dead and at a loss of score or rank all because some guy who knows it will really annoy you decides to ruin your score? Im well aware of the 'ins' and 'outs' of this game batz (3 years in here) and im thinking from a lot of experience with missions over this time. Ive seen all types of behaviour from players who have joined, and a fair bit of it has been very disruptive, (and many times deliberately)

I know it sounds silly but if you have ever been in the TA when half a dozen players are on and killshooter is left off .......they shoot everything that moves at the spawn point or continually shoot people as they up regardless of whos side they are on. And like i said there are a fair few people out there who seem to rellish messing things up. Ive seen it happen in scenarios so why would TOD be better or how? Thats what id like clarified really

I like you love the sound of what HTC has described. I realy hope court marshalling will be enough but i cant help thinking of all those players who often state they couldnt give a crap about rank and score and are often very vocal against those that do like to make missions. These people are more than capable of popping in and ruining your day with a deliberate attack on a friendly. Its the old game the game attitude that produces suicide tactics in bombers and those types who dive into a target without so much as a flutter on that elevator to pull out. :)

If your worst penalty is you go back to 'private' rank whats going to stop them ? I hope everyone approaches the TOD with the right play by the rules attitude but from my experience of the Net I do worry about it, its kinda why i asked.

ramzey this is 9 months old??? the interveiw I mean? it has info in it that ive never seen in this BB for the last 9 months. Are you sure you thinking of same interveiw? check it out maybe its a new one.

Offline ramzey

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2003, 09:46:05 PM »
Hazed i was thinking about discussion on BB, about ranks on mission arena and how everything will work

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77159&highlight=mission+arena

read bulledhead thread its a bit younger

Frankly im still worry about penality for bad behaviour.

Somone correct me if im wrong.
Newbies must (everyone must at begin) pass traning and qualification, before they will be allow to fly missions.
Something like traning units (wings) in RAF.

So thats should deal with really "green" pilots who not know how to behave.

When (if) your score/life count drop below "zero" level, you must repeat this qualification.

Possibly missions will be boring for real newbies and peoples who not care. So, procentage of bad behaviour should be low.

I think penality as lover rank will not work for 13 years old kids who dont care. So maybe Mission arena should be avilible for peoples with full payed accounts? Thats exclude all newbies who even not read manual

ramzey

Offline Squire

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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2003, 10:22:27 PM »
Well Hazed I share your concerns, and I can only hope that it can be worked out. I think it will.

Btw anybody know how "fractricide" is handled in WW2OL? any lessons to be learned from there? I have never played it.
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Offline Batz

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after reading the SIMHQ interveiw........
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2003, 10:38:20 PM »
Quote
My point is what about the guy who ISNT 'into' the idea and decides it would be more fun to disrupt play? Is there the possibility of banning for continued misconduct? then how do you decide if it is deliberate.and what is too much misconduct?


Hazed should a guy be demoted or lose enough points he returns to training. They will be no perpetual bottom feeder flying around and ruining your fun consistantly. The possibility is there for an infraction here and there. But HT mentioned tk'rs being court martialled. The opportunity for spoilers will be less in the ToD arena then in the main.

Theres no war to win in ToD. You either advance in rank by flying missions successfully and not dieing or you spend your time in trianing being bored. Remember Ht mentioned with rank will come certain priveledges. Better planes etc.......

The arena isnt "open". Missions will run at given intervals (15 min or 30 min). You can look at the names of the guys in the mission and decide whether or not to fly with a particular person. A tk spoiler wont have anyone that flies with him and wont advance in rank and quite possibly spend his ToD revisiting training.

Being killed otr rarely happens. I have never just exploded or died out right while otr. Most likely you could .ef and exit and get a successfull landing with out penalty of death even though your plane is damaged. I have been killed on the rearm pad by a rocket accidentally going off but never hit with enough bullets to explode. I  have been in many friendly fire incidences otr and never have I been killed out right while in events.

The only way I really see any one accidentally tk'ing some one is in the air. In the air you will need to communicate with you mission mates. Sometimes you will need to take up a cover positon behind a team mate rather then fly through and take a shot yourself.

The same type of "missions" are run in the FB online wars. They even have friendly collisions on. You dont run into a bunch of tk types. You need team work.

The "lecture" about SA is something alot main players dont get. Read about the killshooter whines. They can be just as easily avoided with good SA as tks. Pay attention to your position in relation to all planes around you. Thats the only way i see being tk'd is in the air. The firing over some ones shoulder  or the flying in front of some one already saddled up will have a real effect should you be tk'd or tk someone.  It wasnt much of a lecture as pointing out the differences.

As for the DA and the old TA those are open anything goes arenas. ToD is not an open arena as I said. HT mentioned a court martiall system for tk'rs. If you lose points you get demoted. If you lose enough you go back to training. These are things you dont have in the DA or the main. 1 death will be scored harshly but even Hts example numbers show that 1 death alone wont send you beack to training.

"Private" isnt the worse rank. As I said above the bottom feeder  will be sent back to training if he loses his points.

Yes Ramzey everyone will go through training then advance. In they lose their points they return to training. Beyond that if you see a guy in a mission you know is a fek up then just dont fly that mission with him.

The main will still be there for the kids to be spoilers. The way ToD may be structured is to make the possibility of many spoilers ruining it  for you low.

As much as I hate it Squire hits it on the head. Theres a real penalty for death, theres a penalty via pilot evals for poor team play, and theres a penalty for spoilers.

Will there be times where we are unfairly effected by a tk'r etc?, yes but the number of incidences given the amount of restrictions will be less then in the main or anywhere else.

No one can guarrantee that you wont be tk'd by some idiot or that a true accident may occur where you accidentally kill a team mate. I mentioned bombers because if you ever read the event logs you see that most tk incidences are from bomber gunners.

YMMV

Offline Batz

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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2003, 10:40:18 PM »
TKs cant happen in wwiiol. The hits do nothing and from my experience the over the shoulder firing was rampant especially since most air action was vulching over an enemy field.

Offline mia389

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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2003, 10:41:31 PM »
I like how the missions come from the HQ or Host. That will be alot of fun and kindof like the Special events we have inaway.

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2003, 12:51:59 AM »
From what I can gather the fact that we cant have squadrons (is this true?) will be a real bummer for me.

:(

Offline ramzey

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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2003, 05:59:08 AM »
AH2:Classic will have same squad structure as curent have
only on mission arena it will be a bit diferent

ramzey