Author Topic: Where the jobs are going.  (Read 714 times)

Offline gofaster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6622
Where the jobs are going.
« on: September 03, 2003, 01:22:43 PM »
The new buzzword in the IT sector is the outsourcing of work to less-developed countries on the grounds that it would "reduce costs" (i.e. not having to pay US workers at US rates with US taxes and carrying a US pension fund).  India has become the stereotypical place American workers refer to when telling their opinions, mostly because it really is the place that a lot of American IT jobs are going.  In this example, it is customer support call centers.

Looks like the Utopia the corporate hacks embraced may not be quite the solution they thought it would be.  I hope the whole thing blows up in their corporate CEO faces.

Different world, same old stress
India's call-center workers are productive, educated and work cheaply - but they still get stressed.

By SCOTT BARANCIK, Times Staff Writer
© St. Petersburg Times
published September 3, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


India was supposed to be the call-center industry's Promised Land.

Workers there have undergraduate or master's degrees. They speak excellent English. They consider $1-an-hour wages just great. They don't expect health insurance.

And unlike their U.S. counterparts, more than half of whom quit every year, Indian workers are said to consider their call-center jobs a career.


Not surprisingly, companies like Tampa's Sykes Enterprises and Cincinnati's Convergys Corp. have led a gradual exodus of thousands of jobs from rural America to cities such as Bangalore, India's answer to Silicon Valley. They say their clients - Sykes' include Delta Air Lines, MSN.com and credit-card issuer Providian Financial Corp. - love the reduced rates.

But according to a survey of 1,084 Indian call-center workers from 19 companies, conducted on the sly at local parks, cafes and private homes, the employees are starting to feel more like characters in the Stepford Wives than The Ten Commandments:

Forced to work odd hours to accommodate the American business day, Indian workers find they are estranged from their families and friends, eating poorly, and stressed out by the unending calls from sometimes abusive customers.

The typical Indian worker is required to Americanize his name, change his accent and study American sports and popular culture. What may seem novel at first often adds to his sense of alienation from Indian society.


Indian call-center workers, most of them recent university graduates in their early 20s, tend to be ambitious but overqualified for their sometimes monotonous jobs. Many are frustrated to discover how few management slots are available. Not too different from American college grads, eh?

What Indian workers like best about call centers is the wages. In fact, many have begun moving from one center job to another for just a few pennies more per hour. Poaching is so bad that some Indian companies are beginning to sign bilateral nonaggression pacts.

The result: annual attrition rates have reached an estimated 30 percent to 50 percent per year, far more than U.S. call-center companies anticipated.

"I think in the long run, you need to look at who you're hiring," said Abraham Karimpanal, the survey's author and an assistant general manager at market research firm NFO India. "You're not going to sustain their aspirations for long."

Call center executives can't expect much sympathy from U.S. employees they've laid off. But they are painfully aware of the high turnover rates in India, especially given the high costs of training new workers.

"Attrition is the same problem worldwide, and anyone that thought it was going to be any different in India would be horribly surprised," said Dennis Ross, general manager of offshore operations at Convergys Corp., the world's largest call-center company. The Cincinnati company has 48,000 employees, including 5,100 in India and 7,400 in Florida.

Ross blamed much of the turnover in India on nighttime work hours. "The biological and physiological changes cannot be underestimated," he said.

To ease the problem, Convergys discusses job stress during worker orientations, offers healthy meals at its free cafeterias, allows workers to rotate shifts or answer customer e-mails when possible, and, at one center, opened an in-house cappuccino bar. Free door-to-door transportation is a standard benefit.

In addition, Ross said the company tries to place engineers and other accomplished hires in more challenging jobs, such as technical support for a software product. Management slots are few "so when a position does indeed become available, competition is intense," Ross said.

Convergys' long-term plan: open some call centers in smaller Indian towns, where education, competition and wage pressures are not so high. So, if I read that right, they're looking for less educated people willing to work for less money.  Isn't that just barely a step up from illiterats on the phone? That's precisely the model that Sykes Enterprises and many of its competitors followed domestically in the 1990s. Ross said Convergys will wait until telephone service in rural India improves some, though. Bwahaahaahaahaa!  You're killin' me, man!

Other companies are experimenting with retention methods. Like U.S. dot-com companies before it, one hired a "chief fun officer" to organize group activities and "make sure everyone is feeling good and happy," said Karimpanal, the study's author. Others are letting some employees celebrate Indian holidays with their families by switching calls to non-Indian centers. So, US companies outsource to Indian companies, who outsource to .... say, wasn't this a Dilbert comic recently? And where do I go to apply for the Chief Fun Officer position?

The key, Karimpanal said, may be to hire less-educated, less-motivated workers who have fewer employment options Like, say indentured servants? . The same lesson is likely to apply in today's other call-center hot spots, including the Philippines and Costa Rica.

Workers who were surveyed by NFO India, a subsidiary of NFO WorldGroup of Greenwich, Conn., included employees of Convergys Corp., India's TransWorks Information Services and other providers of outsourced customer support. Researchers also interviewed employees at companies such as General Electric, American Express and Citigroup, as well as industry psychologists and human resources directors. Employees of Sykes Enterprises, which opened its first Indian center a year ago, were not interviewed.

The unexpected attrition problem is not deterring growth plans at Convergys, which will open its third Indian call center next week. Despite the risks, taking customer calls overseas remains a bargain.

"We've not slowed down," Ross said.
Best of luck when customer sat ratings are in the trash can.

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27251
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2003, 01:26:48 PM »
This has been going on since 1998(prolly before that, but thats about when I started noticing the trend), where you been?

Incidently, in 1990, the Prime Minister or whateverthehelltheycallem in India proclaimed that India would become the "Software Capital of the world", and proceeded to pass some sort of bill that gave free education to anyone getting a degree in computer science. Its been many years since I read that, so my facts may be slightly off, but the end result is clearly coming true.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2003, 01:29:32 PM by Ripsnort »

Offline LePaul

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7988
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2003, 01:28:15 PM »
...out carpetting my garage  :)

Wonder when they'll outsource the rest of us  :confused:

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2003, 01:29:20 PM »
"the typical Indian worker is required to Americanize his name"

Ello. Dees ees Bucky Maharisha.  Can I help be of to you today please?

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2003, 01:37:54 PM »
Most Indians I know speak better English than most Americans/Europeans I know.  I do believe the prices cited for the wages are a tad bit off for people with Masters degrees... even in India.

Oh... I'm sorry... I didn't mean to interrupt a good foreigner bashing session and an evil corperate empire conspiracy rant.

Carry on.

MiniD

Offline gofaster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6622
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2003, 01:38:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
"the typical Indian worker is required to Americanize his name"

Ello. Dees ees Bucky Maharisha.  Can I help be of to you today please?


LOL!  That's classic.

I have to wonder sometimes, if Pakistan and India start shooting, which side would the US take?  A lot of big businesses would want to make sure their assets are protected, and that would include outsourced call centers.

I predict American IT workers will find themselves in the same predicament as American garment workers.  

Did you look for the Union label, when buying your coat, dress, or blouse?

Offline Swoop

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9180
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2003, 01:41:25 PM »
There's this global ISP (for which I work) and they've got a European Internet helpdesk in Amsterdam, which is run by Sykes.  Sykes exploy.....well I havn't found one who speaks English yet.

In fact 3 days ago the ISP added the control of country access lists for all users worldwide to Sykes' responsibilities.  As SOP the ISP blocks all access to Russia, Bulgaria, Pakistan and (for Asia-Pacific users) The Phillipines.  This is to combat hacking attempts which primarily seem to flow from these countries.  If a user wants to go there then he's gotta ask nicely for the country to be deblocked.

By the end of the month I fully expect a few hundred GPCS tickets to hit my queue from users who suddenly get error code LIG0025E, you are not allowed to access the network at this PoP, from pretty much all over the place.  You wait and see......


Offline _Schadenfreude_

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2003, 01:57:24 PM »
Before I moved to a Swiss pharma coy last month I had to make 15 people redundant in London - all their jobs in the Finance/Logistics depts went to India - reason, cost per worker in London about 30,000 dollars, in India, 6,000 dollars, savings over 5 years taking into account intended growth - just under 2.3 million dollars

Bye bye jobs...better get qualified in something that they can't do....

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2003, 02:02:53 PM »
Quote
Most Indians I know speak better English than most Americans/Europeans I know.


Then you had better ask them to go work in a call centre. I'm sick to the back teeth of some foreigner asking about my credit cards or mortgage arrangements. I had 10 calls in one month alone and 8 of them came from India (I asked). I could barely understand some of them.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18206
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2003, 02:08:37 PM »
First our 7/11's - now our IT departments!!

I heard tech support for your dss dish is in INdia

I know cable service is bad in parts of the US but at least Carey the Cable Guy lives in your city LOL
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27251
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2003, 02:39:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D

Oh... I'm sorry... I didn't mean to interrupt a good foreigner bashing session and an evil corperate empire conspiracy rant.

Carry on.

MiniD


There wasn't one, until you arrived in the thread...what was it you wanted to express?

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2003, 03:19:53 PM »
Corporations are responsible to their stock holders, not for their employees.
If you don't like it you can always move to Cuba or North Korea and become a real socialist :)

Offline ccvi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
      • http://www.carl-eike-hofmeister.de/
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2003, 03:49:09 PM »
Same or similar product, much cheaper price. That's a good deal.

The problem isn't that the jobs get moved to where it's cheaper. The problem is that there are parts of the world where everyone is, compared to western standards, underpaid. Or, the other way round, the western world is overpaid.

Jobs that don't depend on location will help to speed up the process of making the world more equal.

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2003, 03:54:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
There wasn't one, until you arrived in the thread...what was it you wanted to express?
LOL! I suppose it was just me seeing this as a "let's make fun of the Indians cause they're stealing all our jobs cause stupid evil corperations are going with the cheaper labor!" rant.

I guess I must have read it wrong.

MiniD

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Where the jobs are going.
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2003, 05:55:23 PM »
Quote
Corporations are responsible to their stock holders, not for their employees. Staga


Or, really, to their customers. All of this outsourcing (in all fields) is seen as reducing expense, because all of the old, experienced knowledgable staff that can actually understand and solve a customer's problem cost too much money on the balance sheet. That makes their stock less attractive, and may mean that the CEO will only parachute out of the crashing and burining company with $20 or $30 million instead of $100 million or so.

Therefore, we get some call desk person (foreign or otherwise) whose only knowledge of the problem comes from a help screen with a handful of common problems and stock solutions that may or may not apply to your problem. You may or may not be able to do better and get a tier 2 or a manager.

This is a scary time, because corporate business has an entirely distorted foundation today. It's still 1998, even without the bubble. I wouldn't be surprised if even after the economy corrected itself we fail to see a significant improvement in unemployment rates. Employees are an expense, customer service is an expense, and as long as all the corporations set similarly low standards that is acceptable with enough marketing to keep the orders flowing.

Charon