Author Topic: Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?  (Read 1644 times)

Offline capt. apathy

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2003, 01:10:31 PM »
Defiance,

yes we all(or at least most) agree Saddam was a evil guy.  the reason we still whine about the WMD's is an important legal one.

bush did not get aproval from congress for this war, he went around them, this is only allowed when we face a clear and pressent danger to the US.  we where told this was iraq's WMD program that could deliver these agents within 45 minutes.

now iraq had more than 45 min warning that we where going to invade.   if they had these weapons and where willing to use them (that whole threat thing again), why didn't they?

1.  where they afraid of what we'd do if they did?  if so then they really wheren't much of a threat to the US after all.

2.  maybe they where afraid to use them on their own land.  no, wait they've done that before thats one of the reasons we invaded.

3.  maybe they didn't use them because they destroyed them, and don't have them, or they where hidden so far out in the dessert that they couldn't be brought to bare in a reasonable time frame. but then you'd lose that clear & presseent threat thing again wouldn't you.

any other reasons you can think of why, if the threat was really there as the whitehouse says/said, that they wheren't used?

Offline Glasses

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2003, 01:50:15 PM »
Either one of two things happened:
Saddam had um and since he knew the war was coming, he disposed of them(unlikely) or sent them to neighboring countries,which the US for now couldn't go into.

Iraq could have disposed of them(unlikely too) in the late 90s coarsed by French , German, and Russian politicos, but left the  resolutions in place in order for them ^ to remain  in the status quo,thus most of the bussiness dealings with Iraq could've continued.

Offline capt. apathy

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2003, 02:39:17 PM »
even if one of those 2 options happened, then we still lack the "clear and pressent danger",  Bush should have obeyed the law and got congressional aproval for this war.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2003, 02:53:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
bush did not get aproval from congress for this war, he went around them,  


This is not so.  Bush did in fact get an authorization from congress.

Listen to Kerry and Leiberman when they say, "I voted to give the president authority...."
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Offline wulfie

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2003, 03:23:39 PM »
The U.S. Congress did vote for war, and the U.N. did pass resolutions authhorizing armed force to counter noncompliance with U.N. conditions and the reason for those resolutions was that the U.N., long before G.W. Bush was President, considered Iraq to be a threat to its neighbors and regional stability and part of the threat was evidence of active WMD programs.

There's no way that can be spun - before the current political hoopla, a body of people who are well respected world leaders and authorities agreed with the viewpoints of the few leaders now being slandered as 'liars' or 'agressors' - mainly for political purposes.

Maybe the U.N. did not think military intervention would ever take place based on the resolutions they passed, so they passed them even if not totally convinced - this is not a cause for blame as far as the U.S., the U.K., or any of the other Nations who supported the overthrow of Hussein and his cronies.

Maybe congress voted in favor of war because they didn't fear any political fallout at the time - that's not why you vote for or against war.

But (for the 5th time by me personally on this BBS), none of this has anything to do with the 'pink elephant' questions that no one ever seems to ponder (probably because the answer doesn't generate controversy):

If there were no WMD, then why would a power-addicted dictator risk his regime by not allowing totally free access to inspection teams?

If there were no WMD, why did the campaign of misdirection against the U.N. inspection teams even take place?

If there were no WMD, why were signal intercepts made available that quoted Iraqi military commanders telling subordinates to delete all reference to chemical warfare systems, tactics, and doctrine from their SOPs?

Why?

Mike/wulfie

Offline capt. apathy

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2003, 03:39:36 PM »
Quote
If there were no WMD, why were signal intercepts made available that quoted Iraqi military commanders telling subordinates to delete all reference to chemical warfare systems, tactics, and doctrine from their SOPs?


well, how about if you no longer have chemical warfare systems you no longer need any reference to them in your SOPs.

do we still have reference for cleaning and care of mussle loading black powder weapons in our infantry SOPs?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2003, 03:42:23 PM »
Wow! Your desire to attribute positive motives to saddam hussein and negative ones to the usa is simply stunning...  :rolleyes:

Offline Erlkonig

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2003, 04:10:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wulfie
If there were no WMD, then why would a power-addicted dictator risk his regime by not allowing totally free access to inspection teams?

If there were no WMD, why did the campaign of misdirection against the U.N. inspection teams even take place?


This goes for both questions: probably because he believed, with some justification, that inspection teams were loaded with American and British spies.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2003, 04:12:14 PM »
Erlkonig you mean the inspectors wernt suposed to go snooping around Iraqi weapons sites?  I love how you just eat up and belive all of Saddam's propaganda...

Offline Drunky

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2003, 04:13:29 PM »
No new information about the convoy from Iraq going to Syria before the attack?

I thought the Isrealis had information about this.
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Offline Erlkonig

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2003, 04:25:15 PM »
GRUNHERZ, your constant knee-jerking is beginning to wear on me.  I am not trying to justify what Saddam did, merely posit a possible explanation for his behavior.  I think it's pretty obvious Saddam was a paranoid man and I don't find it a stretch to suggest that he feared the inspectors' interests and intentions went beyond his weapons programs.

Offline wulfie

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2003, 04:32:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Erlkonig
This goes for both questions: probably because he believed, with some justification, that inspection teams were loaded with American and British spies.


2, maybe 3 of 30+ and none of those being confirmed can't really be called 'loaded', which in turn does't really give 'some justification'. What you are speaking of did happen but is almost 'ancient history' in terms of the events we are talking about here.

Also, due to the largely baseless accusations by Iraq of what you allude to above, the inspection teams were heavily 'revamped' (curiously enough the major effect of this was to take 8 of the top 10 best WMD inspectors in terms of international opinion and have them removed from future assignments in Iraq - I'm not so sure Iraq was worried about them being spies - more likely they were opposed to them being good at their job) from 1994 onward.

So, in 2002 and 2003, when dealing with what most experts in the field of WMD non-proliferation considered to be the 'B-Team', headed by a WMD inspector characterized as a 'sweet old grandpa type that has lost a step mentally', why would Iraq still give them the run-around? The evidence given to the U.N. by the U.S. and the U.K. about Iraq's efforts to thwart the latest and much more 'friendly' WMD inspection team was refuted by no one , including Iraq.

In mid-late 2002 the ball was sqaurely in Hussein's court. He could have launched an international public affairs-type campaign that would have assured his security if he had nothing to hide. Invite Western media to accompany inspection teams, give simple evidence of destruction, or even avoid lying over things like the continued modification of missiles where the only purpose for the modification was to allow them to reach Israel. He did none of this. He's either terminally stupid, which is unlikely when you consider how long he's avoided the efforts of various groups of well motivated and intelligent individuals who were out to kill him, or there's more to the story than Howard Dean, John Kerry, and the majority of the media outlets are currently aware of.

I'd place a lot more faith in the supposedly informed/educated opinions of the 'naysayers' (especially the highly political ones) if they actually were putting their reputations on the line when they said what they said.

Kerry (D-Mass) is convinced the people of the U.S. were lied to to start a war and that there was no credible WMD threat (even though he voted for offensive military action vs. Iraq months before the speech by Bush that everyone is calling 'proof of lying' nowadays) - fine. If he's that convinced, then stake his political career on it - have him resign from all offices if he's ever proved wrong.

Hey, I know that can't and won't happen - but some people need to reduce the credibility rating of information from sources that have much to gain if they are believed.

Intelligence may have been cut-and-pasted to prove a point. That is wrong but the true ***** is that no one is going to know for sure if that happened for another 29 years probably (when the relevant raw intelligence can be vetted for FOIA release). But the claim that there were no WMD and there was no threat was contrary to what more than 'only a couple of people' believed. And Blair is also not getting a fair shake - he's been stating his #1 international relations issue is non-proliferation of WMD since the day he was selected for his job and that was well before 11SEP01.

Also, there's no 'abbreviated chain of command' to allow the President to 'cut-and-paste' intelligence to support his arguments as cleanly and secretively as some people have claimed was done. There are numerous career professionals involved in that chain of information that are loyal to the job and the U.S. as opposed to loyal to any given President. If the 'selective analysis' that some in the media say took place to the extent that they imply it did my opinion is that you would have had a resignation or two by now. Career intelligence officers distrust the motives of elected politicians and their cronies/appointees as much as they distrust the media in terms of bias.

On a side note, here's a good collection of reports on Iraq, WMD, etc.:

http://www.cns.miis.edu/research/iraq/index.htm

Mike/wulfie
« Last Edit: September 07, 2003, 04:46:39 PM by wulfie »

Offline 10Bears

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2003, 04:40:26 PM »
Might be helpful for some people on this board to actually read Resolution 114 what congress voted for.. I like this part..

Quote
Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;


Notice the report says "had" not "has".. There is nothing.. absolutly nothing Iraq could've done to avoid this invasion. I wish Congress wouldn've read this Resolution a little bit more carefully.

Quote
Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;


So the material breach is from 1998 not the present.

Quote
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS.

The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to —

(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and

(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.


So if the Security Council threatens to veto "decisive action to hell with them

Offline Defiance

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2003, 04:56:56 PM »
@ capt. apathy

"2. maybe they where afraid to use them on their own land. no, wait they've done that before thats one of the reasons we invaded"

He had them yes as you answered yourself and proven evidence was shown

He had them used them yes 100%
He dicked the UN around yes 100%
He would of escaped a legal war by american senate standards purely on the grounds he couldn't use them faster than 45mins ?  yes? this part i am lost

As i say "we" i say we as in the leading industrial countries etc etc and institutions eg UN (*laugh*) won't/will not learn from history and time n time again let it repeat (in my 35yrs i recall 7 instances off the top of my head)

Dang as far as i could tell the UN (*laugh*) was set up after the league of nations (maybe wrong aint 100% off top of my head sure) with a main if not sole purpose to stop ****e like sadams regime from doing all it's done ??

UN phooey, UN in middle east? in south east asia ? in africa ?
and up until a few years ago in the darn middle of europe ?

Each time a regime as bad as iraq's topple/get toppled i hear "we cannot shall not could not allow this to ever happen again", But as usual going on 1950's to the present day i doubt it very much especially now the UN seems to of lost so much face/faith and give in to ganster/terrorism dictators to buy time to cover their 6's

Offline MrCoffee

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Iraq invasion still justified if there are no WMDs found?
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2003, 05:06:44 PM »
Just wanted to mention that a family in Iraq named their son George Bush. Gonna be interesting to see if the kid makes it past the age of 5 years old.