Author Topic: Training Arena (Read 1106 times)

Happy1 · « **on:** September 07, 2003, 03:29:45 PM »

Roscoroo & RTR

1st official day 4 me in the "Training Arena" under Ren's tutelage:)
'twas enjoyable, frustrating & at the same time sobering in that I found out that I'm not good at all in a P38 as a newbie

Thought I could do a lot better than I did, certainly Ren took the wind out of my sails, couldn't shake the teach off my 6 & to make matters worse, in trying to evade him I crashed thrice, the em-
barrassment of it all.

That ground & ocean come up awfully fast ... LOL! I tried to apply
everything I learned in watching AKAK's & mia389's films, but to no avail

Had no probs in doing the Hammerhead as I wasn't able to do the Dble Immelman as the 2nd loop turned into
a Hammerhead

I did learn a lot from Ren, he's a good chap & P38 pilot, I'm shaken by my naivette but shall keep it up until I learn the 38

Thanks to u people & Ren 4 ur encouragements. Back to my studies to better myself

Cheers,

Happy1

P.S De OL OLtos, ur msg dtd 09/13/2002 @ 10:49 PM under "Gameplay feedback/issues" so treatise on "I have whipped this problem", I realize that I DO NEED ur zip file of ur
jpegs of Control Settings. May I have them? Need all the help I
can get

Thx.

mia389 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 07, 2003, 03:55:36 PM »

Happy the P38 might not be the plane you want to learn in. If you do choose it though use flaps when u get slow and also cut your throttles if you need to make that turn alittle more tighter. Most important disable the stall limiter. Once u get the feel for the plane with out the stall limiter being on go back and watch all the P38 films. Watch the use of flaps by looking at the flap indicator and what speeds we have them deployed. After you get the use of flaps down go back and watch the films for throttle usage. You cant hear the engine in the film viewer so you have to monitor the manifold presure gauge. Once you see how thats done go back and watch them again and see how flaps,throttle, and combat trim are used during the films. Its gonna take you some time but it will pay off. My name in the main arrena is PumpJack so if you wanna catch me sometime maybe I can help. Ive been flying the P38 for a year now and Im still learning in it. You also need to know the plane your going up against. Ill fight a spit5 way different then any 109 or 51. P38 can turn quite well and can stall fight great. youll notice some of my films my speeds are very slow and Im up hi. If I know Im going low I really try to keep it fast. Beware of the P38s compression. Its also a big target for other planes. On the other hand it has great fire power and good climb performance. Youll notice in some of my films Im using my climb to an advantage. They also love doing vertical loops with full flaps.

Allen

Roscoroo(work) · « **Reply #2 on:** September 07, 2003, 04:30:47 PM »

you may want to take some time in the spit 5-9 models for just a bit ... there very forgiving and will teach you basic acm faster then a p 38 will .... but thats the easier learning curve ...

I held out too when i came here ... i was tired of spits from fa and flew nothing but a corsair for my 1st 3 months .... i had to get in a spit to finnally get a grip on the game.

its not that these are bad planes .... far from that ... but just harder to learn in ...

mia389 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 07, 2003, 04:56:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Roscoroo(work)
you may want to take some time in the spit 5-9 models for just a bit ... there very forgiving and will teach you basic acm faster then a p 38 will .... but thats the easier learning curve ...

I held out too when i came here ... i was tired of spits from fa and flew nothing but a corsair for my 1st 3 months .... i had to get in a spit to finnally get a grip on the game.

its not that these are bad planes .... far from that ... but just harder to learn in ...

Exactly... well said Spits are much easier to fly and u dont have to worry about flaps and throttle control as much as you would in a hog,jug or a P38. Once you understand the spit and feel comfortable with it then mabye move to the p38 if your intrested in that plane.

Happy1 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 07, 2003, 06:57:08 PM »

Gentlemen

Thx much for ur invaluable advice, I shall follow what the both of u have advised me, perhaps in my choice selection of planes I bit off too much, such as a 38 & shall start w/a Spit instead, & after
reaching my comfort level in a Spit shall make the transition to the 38

Good thinking, sound advice.

Gratefully,

Happy1

SKurj · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2003, 09:29:06 PM »

F6 is a good one too for newb, real easy to fly.

Not as easy as the Fm2 tho I might add

SKurj

Roscoroo · « **Reply #6 on:** September 07, 2003, 09:32:55 PM »

now for jabo missions (loading up the heavy bombs and rockets)
I'd still stick with the P-38 though ... practice jabo runs from 8-10 k
hit backspace til you see the bombs selected in the box on the dash.. type .salvo 2 into the chat bar this selects the bombs to drop at the same time and the rockets will fire of in two's when u toggle to those.

cut the thottle when u are close to over head of the target . shift c deploys the dive flaps .

try to line up the site on the target as you diving ..... then aline the target to the bottem ring on the site or alittle lower ... this takes practice .... and you want to get the plane to (float) actually in a 0 g gravity state .... then release the bombs ... i release around 4 k alt ussually sometimes lower depending on the target ... raise the dive flaps and pull out push the throttle to the max and climb up and away ....

as you get better then you can deepen your dive and quickly switch to rockets and unload those also into the target ....at around 2 k away...

if you do get compressed at the bottem of the dive hold the K key down to raise the elevator trim .... this sometimes helps pull you out of a compressed state ... auto level/trim resets the trim X key

now the Spitfire isnt a true turn fighter ... but its more of an angles fighter ... as in Leviathns film you'll notice that he doesnt continully turn with the target ... but changes direction (this is for the "angle" and manuvers for another shot at them from a different angle of attack .) he then gets in the "snap shot" and then proceeds to build E back while looking for his next target ....

now most of the time they came at him from a high state of E and he just gave his plane the quick wiggle/roll and then went for the angle to get the snap shot as they quickly turned or pulled up losing there E in the process .... (they miss judged how much E he actually had ) and thats a common mistake alot of guys do .

the spit wont continuely turn like a a6m5 will and not in a tighter circle even with flaps.... so dont try to turn with them like that go for the angles... or use flaps with a spit (they take to long to deploy to help in turns) and it wont climb with the boom and zoom fighters .... you need to lure those type of planes to you, or catch them unaware . ( i suggest you get with a good pilot and practice merges also this will help alot ) I'll see if i have my merge film and send it to ya .....

If you find youself in a stall with the spit alot then you are flying it wrong ... ok this is lesson 1 ill continue more later .... ask away

RTR · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2003, 11:26:20 AM »

Yep, I agree with most of what was said here.
I would add that the DHog is a pretty good Jabo ride as well. At least works well for me

The Spits are definetly great aircraft to start out in. I would also recommend the SpitV before the SpitIX however. A well flown SpitV is more than capable of handling an A6m (Zeke). Although a good description would probably be "a knife fight in a phone booth" .

Now, My impression of the P38 differs a bit from yours Roscoro.
I agree that it is a great jabo ride, but i would really put a newer pilot in a Dhog first. It wont compress as quickly or agressively as the P38, and you can get it pretty slow before rolling into the target (full flaps, gear extended). You can leave the gear down passing through 200mph (just gotta remember to raise'em hehe).
It allows you more time to set up on the target and is generally more forgiving (IMHO).

Last but not least, what ever you decide to fly, recognize that the biggest killer in here is poor situational awarness.
SA, SA, SA... know where you are, where he is, where he is going, where you are going, whats coming in etc. And once you start an attack carry it through (you should already have identified an exit point or an out, before you commit to the attack).
Cheers
RTR

Roscoroo · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2003, 04:38:12 PM »

yes i totally agree that the corsair is a better learning jabo ride....
And I myself perfur the f4u's to the p 38 ... unless im in a hurry ...

But Happy wants to learn the p 38 .... so im just tossing up pointers for him ..(and any other new pilot)

We bolth know the f4u is a slow climb out ... take your time sort of plane . with a great rate of roll ... (it dodges bullits and ack really easy) but f4u has that wicked stall that has to be mastered.
were the p 38 climbs like crazy but doesnt roll as well and its compression in a dive ... .. so he's trading off one advantage for another ...ect

we havent even touched on the jug and the pony yet ...He needs to learn a couple of planes first ... then move on and try the rest to learn all there advantages and disadvantages ...

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2003, 05:06:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by RTR

Now, My impression of the P38 differs a bit from yours Roscoro.
I agree that it is a great jabo ride, but i would really put a newer pilot in a Dhog first. It wont compress as quickly or agressively as the P38, and you can get it pretty slow before rolling into the target (full flaps, gear extended). You can leave the gear down passing through 200mph (just gotta remember to raise'em hehe).
It allows you more time to set up on the target and is generally more forgiving (IMHO).

RTR

If you are going into compressability while flying the P-38L, you are doing something wrong. Only those that are unfamiliar with the P-38L or those with their heads in the clouds are prone to compressing the Lightning but it is something you really have to work at to make it do. With the dive flaps and a clear understanding what compressability is and what causes it, there's no real excuse for getting your P-38 into such a state.

ack-ack

Happy1 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2003, 05:28:56 PM »

Gentlemen

Just got home from work & read w/the greatest of interest ur opinions, recommendations & advice, u r all very help-
ful, 4 which I'm more than thankful

U r a wonderful group of
people, judging by ur responses u certainly DO KNOW the various
aircraft & mean the very best for me.

After some consideration (trials, experiments w/PLENTY of reading
re various planes per ur recommendations) I've decided to go
with naval aircraft, always did like them, always wanted to fly the
F6F, C & D Hogs, the Big Blue. Launching a/c from carriers.

Instrumental to my selection were the treatises by Mathman & Soda of the F6F plus various articles on the F6 which I found
on the internet.

Commensurate as of today I shall begin my trng in the F6F, my choice of a/c. Thx 2 all of u 4 ur help & input. I seek ur advice,
F6F tactics & F6 films (Trng & Combat) for my edification.

Cheers,

Happy1

RTR · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2003, 07:24:47 PM »

Well Ack Ack, I still have a fairly steep learning curve with the P38, so any corrections you have for me are welcome. I'm a clean slate sir, feel free to write on me

I still stand by the statement that it compresses more quickly and agressively, however in retrospect, i should qualify that with "in the hands of the inexperienced". In general, I dont have to work to hard to get it to compress, however thats probably more me (ham fisted dolt that I am), than the aircraft.
Still a delight to fly.
cheers
RTR

scJazz · « **Reply #12 on:** September 09, 2003, 07:35:58 AM »

Very quick short rule of thumb for dealing with compression in a P38 in a JABO role. TO ALL YOU EXPERTS: This is mearly a general concept and not a absolute rule so please don't flame me for giving it.

Enter your bombing run under the following conditions and it is unlikely that you will compress.

1) Under 250 MPH IAS (indicated air speed, the speed that is lower on the speedometer) {yes I know it isn't called a speedometer}

2) Chop your throttle to ZERO as you enter the run.

3) Make sure your dive flaps are deployed when you enter the run. SHIFT C by default.

4) Enter the run at 10,000' AGL.

Do these things and you probably won't even have to consider the trim. Although extremely anxious pilots will often set the trim as before entering the run.

Finally, upon weapon release, punch full throttle and WEP ON, flip your dive brakes off, and apply roughly 2G pull out (you might need more to actually avoid the ground but once you miss the ground lower it to 2Gs). Doing this generally maximizes the Zoom quality of the P38 and will haul you back up to altitude while maintaining speed and giving you horizontal distance from all the AAA. It will also cause the big bad red icons to fall behind you at ludicrous speed which is a good thing. If you got your weapons on target they are going to be very mad at you.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #13 on:** September 09, 2003, 09:26:51 AM »

Happy1,

First of all, welcome to the AH Community.

I think you are doing fine. Your choice of planes is a personal one and judging from all the reading you've done I'd probably chose a plane like a P38 or F6F, also. You chose some planes that have played an important role in history and can be really kewl to fly. However, like anything complex ya gotta learn to walk before you can run. You might compare it to your first mini-bike. Give it the gas and off you go. But if you begin with a Harley Electra Glide you gotta start thinking about clutches and gears and weight besides looking out for cars and trucks on the road. Going back 100 years when I was in the Air Force you started flying a Cessna 172. That's a far cry from an F-16. The reason? Get the fundamentals outa the way because they are basically the same for all planes. Once you conquer the fundamentals you can get into the more exotic iron.

A lot of good suggestions were made here from alof of experienced people. You have a choice to make. You can try and learn to fly the F6F from the get go and have a steep learning curve or you can begin with a more docile plane and shorten the time it takes to transition to the more exotic iron. The reason? If you're trying to learn a high yoyo but keep stalling then you are not learn to do a high yoyo.

So what's a docile plane? A spitfire V (5) or IX (9) or even try an A6M2 (Zeke). Why? These planes have gentle stall charateristics and you can get all the basic flight skills learned quickly. From there you can transition to the plane of your choice.

Like you said to me, you are on "day two". The flights tips using some of the more advanced planes are coming from folks with years of doing this. What's become second nature to them is brand new to you.

Ren

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2003, 11:42:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by scJazz
Very quick short rule of thumb for dealing with compression in a P38 in a JABO role. TO ALL YOU EXPERTS: This is mearly a general concept and not a absolute rule so please don't flame me for giving it.

Enter your bombing run under the following conditions and it is unlikely that you will compress.

1) Under 250 MPH IAS (indicated air speed, the speed that is lower on the speedometer) {yes I know it isn't called a speedometer}

2) Chop your throttle to ZERO as you enter the run.

3) Make sure your dive flaps are deployed when you enter the run. SHIFT C by default.

4) Enter the run at 10,000' AGL.

Do these things and you probably won't even have to consider the trim. Although extremely anxious pilots will often set the trim as before entering the run.

Finally, upon weapon release, punch full throttle and WEP ON, flip your dive brakes off, and apply roughly 2G pull out (you might need more to actually avoid the ground but once you miss the ground lower it to 2Gs). Doing this generally maximizes the Zoom quality of the P38 and will haul you back up to altitude while maintaining speed and giving you horizontal distance from all the AAA. It will also cause the big bad red icons to fall behind you at ludicrous speed which is a good thing. If you got your weapons on target they are going to be very mad at you.

The easiest way to avoid compressability is to start your dives below 20,000ft.

ack-ack