Date Time Format (ARGH)

[ccvi]

ISO 8601 defines yyyy-mm-dd. Forget everything else.

[miko2d]

Boroda: Please, can you answer me, if I give someone my adress as "70-1-98 XXXXXXXXX highway, 123456, Moscow, Russian Federation" - who will recieve the letter, me or a guy from house 70, building 1, flat 98?

 I see. That does seem strange to me - a quite confusing convention.
 I usially write: "XXXXXXXXX highway 98/1, Apt 70"
 or just: "XXXXXXXXX highway 98/1, #70".

 Actually, I always write Sept 9, 2003 rather than 9/9/03 on any documents where the exact format is not specified - like my checks. That's how humans think - in months, not digits - and I see no reason to accomodate anyone I do not have to.

For me it's natural and easy to think where I send this letter.
 As it was for me when I lived in USSR and was conditioned to think like a (for a) mailman.

When I want to write to my cousin - first thing that comes into my mind is that he lives in the Ukraine,...
 Nops. That's the second thing to come into your mind after you've thought about your cousin.

 And I do not necessarily remember everyone's addresses - I keep them in my notebook or computer - sorted and organised ny name. So my address entry naturally starts with the name and a street/appartment (in case I visit them) and not a country, a city or a zip code. Often I do not even write those down.

When you ask for directions, what do you ask first? "I need a flat number 3" or "Please show me the way to Kiev"?

 When you ask for a favor - yes, sure. You accomodate the person you are asking, who has different proprities than you do. When the person works for you, like a secretary or a mailnen, it's their job to accomodate you withing the arranged boundaries.
 One may often give a direction to the first link of his mail deliery system - a subordinate/accountant/lawyer/contractor "send this letter to Joe Shmoe" without even caring to specify the address and relying on them to deal with it.

Calling me a "collectivist" is funny
 You are right - I should have put a smiley into my post.
 Nevertheless, there is a part of truth in my jokes. It was quite a noticeable and often concious process for me to rid my mind of the thought patterns/habits instilled in my youth - ceasing to think like a subservant individual and starting to think like a souvereign customer.
 Those thoght patterns were rooted in our collectivist upbringing where any civil servant (and there were no others) was considered a superior and a customer just a supplicant and a possibly a nuisance.

We have such machines for maybe 30-40 years by now. The letters are sorted by "postal index", a 6-digit number of the post office. They have some sort of OCR for index field on envelope.

 Yes. I remember. We only used standard preprinted envelopes on which we had to carefully fill all the fields, including the ones intended for OCR - where we had to accomodate not only the mailman but a piece of some machinery.

 I was a bit surprised upon my arrival into US that I could buy or make envelope of pretty much any size or shape and write/print the address on it in any odd way and place I chose as long as it could be reasonably understood - including the "russian way" that starts with the country and ends with the name.

 As long as the postage was correct, the mail people would have to try and deliver it correctly. I would not go out of my way to inconvenience them but neither would I switch to unnatural (for me) formats.

 miko

[Duedel]

Originally posted by ccvi
ISO 8601 defines yyyy-mm-dd. Forget everything else.

... the only format that makes sense (think of sorting etc.)

[Boroda]

Miko, some questions


I see. That does seem strange to me - a quite confusing convention.
I usially write: "XXXXXXXXX highway 98/1, Apt 70"
or just: "XXXXXXXXX highway 98/1, #70".

If you still remember, 98-1-70 is quite different from 98/1, apt. 70. "/" is used in a special conditions, like a house on the corner.

When you ask for a favor - yes, sure. You accomodate the person you are asking, who has different proprities than you do. When the person works for you, like a secretary or a mailnen, it's their job to accomodate you withing the arranged boundaries.
One may often give a direction to the first link of his mail deliery system - a subordinate/accountant/lawyer/contractor "send this letter to Joe Shmoe" without even caring to specify the address and relying on them to deal with it.


Again - we think in different conditions. When I say "ask for directions" I mean simply asking someone in the street how can I get somewhere. I am from Leningrad, so it's a usual thing for me to do, there you will always get detailed instructions. In Moscow you'll get no more then a hand waving or just "@#$% off". People here sometimes are afraid when I start explaining it in Leningrad way...

I didn't mean any kind of job relations.

You are right - I should have put a smiley into my post.
Nevertheless, there is a part of truth in my jokes. It was quite a noticeable and often concious process for me to rid my mind of the thought patterns/habits instilled in my youth - ceasing to think like a subservant individual and starting to think like a souvereign customer.
Those thoght patterns were rooted in our collectivist upbringing where any civil servant (and there were no others) was considered a superior and a customer just a supplicant and a possibly a nuisance.

The times when a customer was mostly a nuisance are long gone. When I recieve improper service - I usually make them regret this. Any improper service will result in a punishment for the servicing person, at least in commercial enterprises. Certainly, in old Sovok structures like mail or some communal offices it's not true, but even their I can (and will) spoil them lots of blood.

Yes. I remember. We only used standard preprinted envelopes on which we had to carefully fill all the fields, including the ones intended for OCR - where we had to accomodate not only the mailman but a piece of some machinery.

You were free to leave the index boxes empty, and make mailmen sort your letter manualy, but what for? Usually the letter without index arrived later then with index. Do you remember all that "Remember your postal index please!" and "Please fill in the postal index" signs?

Following your way of thinking: in USSR usage of machinery didn't make people loose their jobs, and didn't affect salaries. It was simply making life easier, just as it is usually supposed to do.

I was a bit surprised upon my arrival into US that I could buy or make envelope of pretty much any size or shape and write/print the address on it in any odd way and place I chose as long as it could be reasonably understood - including the "russian way" that starts with the country and ends with the name.

As long as the postage was correct, the mail people would have to try and deliver it correctly. I would not go out of my way to inconvenience them but neither would I switch to unnatural (for me) formats.


Can you expect my letter to be delivered in the US (for example) if I write an adress in a Russian way? Nope. They will not. More to say: you have to be carefull and make special precautions, or they will confuse the reciever's adress to the sender's adress (if you position them in usual Russian way), and they will send the letter back to Russia (!!!). Isn't it natural to write the reciever's adress above the sender's adress?! We all write from left to right, from top to bottom, we are not Chinese or Arab!

So - all your rhethorics is useless. You write adress to help your mailman, while I write it to help mine. It's funny how you turn any difference between two cultures in a way like we are poor opressed Russians and everything is done in a special diabolic way to enslave our minds. Believe me, before 1917 adresses were written in the same Soviet way.

[Gadfly]

Actually, Boroda, you write the address it goes to in big letters right in the center of the envelope, and the senders in the upper left corner, or on the back of the envelope.  Regardless, if there is any kind of name or address at all, it will be delivered.  I have done some pretty silly? weird? things on envelopes, and never had them lost.

Also, I searched for the history of Russian Postal service and couldn't find anything other than some excellent sites on stamps and postal covers.  Do you have links?

In the US, mechanization began in the 1920s and was complete by 1960.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Boroda
At least I can always find a good excuse for my BBS posts: I practice my English

Some Americans need the same practice.

[miko2d]

Boroda: Again - we think in different conditions. When I say "ask for directions" I mean simply asking someone in the street how can I get somewhere.

 Right. When asking directions, I am asking a stranger for a favor who is not obligated to help me. I am infringing on his time/concentration. So I am expected to extend him/her all the curtesy and consideration I am capable of. I am expected to smile and say "please", "sir" and "thank you".

 The mail or delivery service is different. They work for me. That does not mean I can be offensive or obstructive - and I am not, usually - but there is much more leeway for me in my dealings with them.
 For instance I do not have to tell them "please" or "thank you" or write the address in the most convenient form for them (as long as it is reasonably legible) and they are obligated to accomodate me. And they must smile and say "thank you" to me or I will have a legitimate complaint.

 When I ask a gas station attendant for directions, I say "Excuse me sir, could you please tell me where XXX is." And he says "Sure buddy".
 When I buy gas from the same guy, I could just say "Fill it up. Regular. Cash." and he must say with a smile "Yes, sir, Thank you, sir."

I am from Leningrad... In Moscow you'll get...

 Even in New York one can occasionally tell Moscow manners from most other places...


The times when a customer was mostly a nuisance are long gone.

 I sure hope so and glad to hear that. Contrary to what most people believe, civilisation starts not with the technological level or even the amount of capital/wealth, but with the adherence to contracts - fulfilling one's responcibilities completely. If that is present, the rest quickly follows.
 Unfortunately the US of A seems to be developing the other way while the russians are re-discovering the benefits of civility.


Following your way of thinking: in USSR usage of machinery didn't make people loose their jobs, and didn't affect salaries. It was simply making life easier, just as it is usually supposed to do.

 Sure, making life easier for some at the expence of the others.

Can you expect my letter to be delivered in the US (for example) if I write an adress in a Russian way? Nope. They will not.

 I bet they would.

More to say: you have to be carefull and make special precautions, or they will confuse the reciever's adress to the sender's adress

 I see no way around that other than following local conventions. Of course when sending international mail I always put "From:" and "To:" just to be sure. I expect them to accomodate me but I am not going overboard with that.

 Isn't it natural to write the reciever's adress above the sender's adress?! We all write from left to right, from top to bottom, we are not Chinese or Arab!

 I just stick a small pre-printed label in the top left corner.


So - all your rhethorics is useless. You write adress to help your mailman, while I write it to help mine.

 Didn't you just claim that my mailman would have easier time reading the other way around?

It's funny how you turn any difference between two cultures in a way like we are poor opressed Russians and everything is done in a special diabolic way to enslave our minds.

 Now you forgot the smiley.
 I am not turning any difference into the culture war but I can often trace (correctly or not - that is another matter) a different ways the people think to the differences in cultures.

 What's wrong with that? I criticise the "western" and american ways way more often than I criticise ex-soviet ways.
 I am not saying that the strictly-mandated envelopes were the tool of the brain-washing by the oppressive regimes - communists or even Tsar's. But I do see some peoples' ready adherence to arbitrary rules as a result of conditioning.
 Ex-soviets are very distinct in that respect - not just being conditioned to readily and unquestioningly abide by arbitrary rules but often demanding others to do so on their private initiative.
 Only in a russian bus could I get a lecture from a complete stranger (usually an older person) on the proper ways to dress, cut hair, (not) hold hands, etc. - even when the behavior did not involve noise or other inconvenience to others.
 My wife visited recently and this custom is still there.

 We were expected to behave and watch for others to behave. And expected to enjoy that power to tell people what to do and to elieve we had right to interfere. Pure and simple.
 I am sure that such behavior was not particular to only soviet society. Most other rigid/oppressive ones had similar ways, including in America. It even seems on the rise here - Political Correctness, etc.

 miko

[Boroda]

Right. When asking directions, I am asking a stranger for a favor who is not obligated to help me. I am infringing on his time/concentration. So I am expected to extend him/her all the curtesy and consideration I am capable of. I am expected to smile and say "please", "sir" and "thank you".

I think that being polite is the easiest way to make life better. So, if someone kindly (as you described ) asks me for directions I try to be nice and polite too.

The mail or delivery service is different. They work for me. That does not mean I can be offensive or obstructive - and I am not, usually - but there is much more leeway for me in my dealings with them.
For instance I do not have to tell them "please" or "thank you" or write the address in the most convenient form for them (as long as it is reasonably legible) and they are obligated to accomodate me. And they must smile and say "thank you" to me or I will have a legitimate complaint.

When I ask a gas station attendant for directions, I say "Excuse me sir, could you please tell me where XXX is." And he says "Sure buddy".
When I buy gas from the same guy, I could just say "Fill it up. Regular. Cash." and he must say with a smile "Yes, sir, Thank you, sir."

I think that being polite with service personell is normal. I'd rather smile to the gas station attendant, taxi driver, waiter or a woman at the counter, and maybe even joke. I think that you understand that it's no true that Russians are the people who never smile.

Even in New York one can occasionally tell Moscow manners from most other places...  

Thanks New York impressed me as a hostile city, where I felt very insecure after sunset. Even in worst proletarian districts like Tekstilschiki I don't feel like at Manhattan. But it's my city, and I know how to behave. At least here noone throws ice from a paper cup at you. Maybe it's OK at Manhattan, but such things make me uncomfortable.


I sure hope so and glad to hear that. Contrary to what most people believe, civilisation starts not with the technological level or even the amount of capital/wealth, but with the adherence to contracts - fulfilling one's responcibilities completely. If that is present, the rest quickly follows.
Unfortunately the US of A seems to be developing the other way while the russians are re-discovering the benefits of civility.

"fulfilling one's responcibilities completely" is the key phrase.

USSR felt apart because people lost motivation to do so. But it's another big question

Sure, making life easier for some at the expence of the others.

As for me - I'd better use pre-printed envelopes, because I awfully write by hand (отвратительный почерк, прости, лень лезть в словарь). Sometimes I can't understand what I wrote myself.

I bet they would.

After getting back some envelopes with adress in "Russian way" had to write it in 2 ways: Russian in Cyrillic and Western in Latin. It was in early-90s maybe, when we had non-preprinted envelopes already.

I see no way around that other than following local conventions. Of course when sending international mail I always put "From:" and "To:" just to be sure. I expect them to accomodate me but I am not going overboard with that.

Here we come to a problem with Soviet pre-printed envelopes... "From", "to" and other words there were printed in French, according to international standards, like "Par Avion" instead of "Air Mail"...

I just stick a small pre-printed label in the top left corner.

And again: as you remember we had senders adress at the left! No kidding. I got back several letters myself before someone explained me what was wrong.

What's wrong with that? I criticise the "western" and american ways way more often than I criticise ex-soviet ways.
I am not saying that the strictly-mandated envelopes were the tool of the brain-washing by the oppressive regimes - communists or even Tsar's. But I do see some peoples' ready adherence to arbitrary rules as a result of conditioning.
Ex-soviets are very distinct in that respect - not just being conditioned to readily and unquestioningly abide by arbitrary rules but often demanding others to do so on their private initiative.
Only in a russian bus could I get a lecture from a complete stranger (usually an older person) on the proper ways to dress, cut hair, (not) hold hands, etc. - even when the behavior did not involve noise or other inconvenience to others.
My wife visited recently and this custom is still there.

Hmm. Getting "advises" and being tought how to behave, how to dress etc. is annoying. I think that the cause is very simple: such people are mentaly sick. Or, maybe "mentaly unsatisfied" is a better phrase. 90% of the people making scandals in buses or subway are emotionally "hungry". They lack normal human communication, and this behaviour is their way of social self-satisfaction.

We were expected to behave and watch for others to behave. And expected to enjoy that power to tell people what to do and to elieve we had right to interfere. Pure and simple.
I am sure that such behavior was not particular to only soviet society. Most other rigid/oppressive ones had similar ways, including in America. It even seems on the rise here - Political Correctness, etc.

We were expected to behave and watch for others to behave. But "expected" doesn't mean that normal people did so, and in fact "enjoyed that power to tell people what to do and to elieve they had right to interfere". 90% of Soviet people didn't give a flying f@#k about what the were supposed to do, and wanted only to be left alone and live, as I think 90% of all the people in the world do... And being a "stukach" was always the worst thing that someone could be caught on. It could mean social isolation and disrespect from everyone.

[Mark Luper]

Originally posted by Nashwan
If today's September 9th, and yesterday was September 8th, why is it the 4th of July instead of July 4th?

Because it's a holiday. Actually both are right. One describes it as a holiday, the other describes the date.

The 4th of July (the holiday) is on July 4th.

[FUNKED1]

WE CAN NOT ALLOW.... A DATE TIME FORMAT GAP!

[GrimCO]

Boroda,

You continue to amuse me each time you post. Please don't ever stop doing it. I would truly miss it, and I mean that in the most sincere of ways.

You've gone out of your way this time. The long dissertation showing the superiority of the Russian way of addressing envelopes had me engrossed. I give it not one, but TWO thumbs up for content, and the transitional smoothness with which it deviated from the original thread.

Do the Ruskies have a better way of peeling potatoes than we do here in the U.S.?  That subject has the potential for a real cliff hanger!

[Karnak]

I've worked for the post office as a letter carrier.

Point the first, the western style of addressing poses no additional difficulty whatsoever.  None.

Point the second, Russia has not had sorting machines like we have here for forty years.  To make that claim is ludicrious.

[rpm]

Originally posted by Boroda

BTW, do you still have telegraph? It was usefull when you needed to inform someone fast when you are in a place where phone is unsavailible or takes several hours to order a conversation with other city. I usually used telegrams informing my relatives that I am OK when hiking sonewhere really far away in the mountains or taiga, when we had a village on our way.
 

We must have VASTLY superior telephones than Russia. There is this new invention...The Cellular Phone...it works almost anywhere (and has no wires!:eek:  )Telegrams disappeared for the most part in the 1960's. Western Union is now used to send money to the sattellite TV company to stop them from turning off your HBO if the payment is late.

[Mark Luper]

Originally posted by miko2d
Eagler: we measure in inches and feet too

 That one I agree with - total lunacy. Screwing up one's life just to be different from the French is plain stupid.

 95% of US high school graduates do not know how many feet are in a mile or how many ounces are in a gallon.

 Would not help them if they knew, since they cannot do arithmetics anyway.

 miko

Though I have felt this way for some time I have made it a point to keep it to myself. Well, I can't take it any longer! Miko, (I say this in the friendliest possible way) you are full of bullhokey

[rpm]

Originally posted by miko2d
Eagler: we measure in inches and feet too

 That one I agree with - total lunacy. Screwing up one's life just to be different from the French is plain stupid.

 95% of US high school graduates do not know how many feet are in a mile or how many ounces are in a gallon.

 Would not help them if they knew, since they cannot do arithmetics anyway.

 miko

5280 feet in 1 mile

128 ounces in 1 US Gallon

1 + 1 = 2

Maybe Texas schools are just better.