Author Topic: Interview with 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, leading Allied scorer.  (Read 919 times)

Offline Karnak

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There is an interview with the top Allied scorer, 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, at this location:

 http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2000/09002_1text.htm#top

Enjoy  

Sisu
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Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Nath-BDP

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I bet half of those kills aren't confirmed.

Offline Ripsnort

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He was a speaker  at the Boeing Flight Museum last year, very nice fellow, he had a translator with him thank Cod!

Offline Karnak

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What makes you say that Nath?

Sisu
-Karnak
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline mx22

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Nath,

Kozhedub is one of the highest scoring Soviet and Allied aces of WW2. Those 62 victories are all confirmed. Btw, Russian scoring system was much more strict then in others Allied countries.
Please next time you say something, provide us with your source of information. Else keep your opinions like this to yourself only.

mx22

[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 08-11-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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mx22, thanks for info. Are all the numbers he quotes confirmed, or is there a disagreement between German and Soviet/Russin historians?

I have had this question for some time, and maybe now someone can answer it.

I know the Germans had a more strict confirmed kill system than the allieds (Sviets excluded). Or I think I know (was told here on bb)

Now, what *were the criteria* for confirmed kill in the various airforces?

------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-11-2000).]

Offline miko2d

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 I have strong reasons to believe that Kozhedub and a handfull of other russian aces are very different case then any other nations' pilots.
 You must remember that you are dealing with the communist regime with all the implications.

 I am positive that the following thing happened to those ace pilots:
 Once a pilot showed some promise by shooting down say, 5 enemy planes, he was brought to the attention of the propaganda machine and milked for what it's worth. He had the medals and ranks heaped on him, the newspaper and radio correspondents covering him exclusively and so on.
 All precautions were taken to insure that those pilots continue to rake their kills while minimizing the chance of them being shot down.
 They were not allowed to take off without a few wings tasked with nothing but covering their six.
 You can be sure that all their kills were reported as close to the truth as the conditions allowed. It's just how they've got them that is not reported.

 I have seen statements to that effect in some books, obviously written by authors outside of the communist school.
 I have talked to the war veterans that were shure that such practice took place.
 I am sure from my own experience that there was no way the communist machine could have behaved differently.

 We had lots of records in the Soviet Union that were not so much faked as staged, like a  coal miner performing many daily norms in the course of his "Socialist Competition". What was not mentioned was the fact that on that day the whole mine had it's output halved because everything was working to support the "hero" coal miner.

 I've read practically all the printed memoirs of soviet military commanders - my dad collected them. They are utter BS - the autors were prevented from writing anything significant, like why their division arrived to the western border to "defend" it two weeks before german attacked on June 22, 1941, if the german offence was not expected.
 Or why it was "defending" on the western bank of the river. Or why they did not have trenches dug.
 Or any kind of casualty reports or reasons for things done.
 I am not even talking about the outright lies - in almost every case the russians are outnumbered by germans and advance (or heroically retreat, or better yet, die to the last man) after inflicting much heavier casualties on the enemy. Of course it is the germans who do not know how to fight smart and use human wave assaults.

 Once you know history, or at least suspect the lies and keep an eye for it, you can read a lot of things between the lines and catch some of the truth the communist censure did not mean to surface.
 It's a pity that the most prominent soviet marchall, Zhukov, preferred not to write any memoirs rather then produce the censored BS.

 I believe that Kozhedub was a real war hero. At the same time I would not believe a word of his interview or his memoirs.

miko--

P.S. While the scoring of the particular pilots or snipers might have been very strict in the Red Army, the numbers officially reported  in the newspapers showed total german casualties and equipment losses many times higher then they appeared.
 Also the number of total human losses of the Soviet Union was arbitratily named in 1946 by Stalin at 7 million (to make it smaller then german losses reported at the same time).
 In 1955 when Khrushev was fighting against the remnants of the Stalin's inheritance in his bid for power (Stalin safely dead by then). So the war problems were blamed on Stalin and the losses were reported at 20 millions to make him look worse.
 When Gorbachev removed most of the censure, the most prominent historians (communists, of course, but now "liberal thinking" when it was safe) came up with the 47-50 million as the closest number.

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-11-2000).]

Offline Karnak

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RAF had a similar system to the Germans.  Somebody was supposed to confirm the kill in addition to the pilot who got the pilot.  Both the British and German systems ended up giving about four times the number of kills that actually happened.  My reference is to the Battle of Britain where the Germans claimed four times the number lost by the British.  The British claims in the first month of the battle were actually lower than what the Germans recorded as having lost.  In subsequent months of the battle however, British claims spiraled up into fantasy land to join the German fantasy land claims.

Claims of a nearly perfect German claim system are far from the historical reality.  I should note that the German claims were very accurate if the kill happened over land occupied by the Germans.  But if it happened over the sea or enemy held land, they were just as bad as the British and Americans.

Sisu
-Karnak
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline mx22

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StSanta,

All the books dealing or talking about Russian AF of WW2 list him as highest scoring Allied ace. So I bet there were a lot of studies done to confirm his record and there is no need to doubt his score.
I have Osprey's Russian Aces of WW2 book at home which describes scoring system in Russian AF. I'll try not to forget to post it here when I get home.

miko2d,

I think Zhukov's book script was the REAL story, but he couldn't print it due to sencorship. So some editing took place for the benefit of Soviet society
I'm gonna keep quiet about the rest of your post. Nothing of what you say there is proven, so I consider it's waste of time argueing about it.
Btw, lets not forget that many soldiers in Soviet army in first weeks didn't even had weapons issued to them. They had to fight off Germans with bare hands. Call it as you want, but it can be called heroical retreat in my opinion. Stand to the last man was the real fact too, I heard it from my grandfather who fought there.

mx22

Offline miko2d

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 Well, mx22,

 It is hard to argue about the fine points of the Soviet History. Until 10 years ago trying to talk to the eyevitnesses to get the real facts would have been very dangerous.
 Since then it is very hard to find live eyewitnesses (with the male life expectancy there below 60 and considering that the war was not conducive to the  veteran's health) who know the truth but were not benefitting from the lies.

 With the free press in Russia there is lot of crap being published frpm the supposed eyewitnesses, conveniently dead by now, by the eyewitnesses whos objectiveness is suspect - like Kozhedub, from some kind of "documents" supposedly left around and conveniently found.

 One thing I know for sure - the staged records were as much an integral part of the Soviet life as the advertisement in the capitalist countries. The same happened before, during and after the war.

 Also, what is the likelihood that a high-ranking officer (Kozhedub was a general or something close at the end of the war, marshall eventually) and a rare holder of three Golden Stars of the Hero of the Soviet Union would be allowed to fly a lone wolf mission accompanied by a single wingman?!
 "At that point, we saw our fighters and we turned for home." - what a joke - if there were no fighters around and Kozhedub had been killed, quite a few people would have lost their heads.

 As for the "unarmed russian soldiers" - there are quite a few reasonable explanations  for that starting with the mobilisation being conducted in the areas being overrun with enemy troops ar reinforcements sent to replace casualties.

 What about 25 thousand russian tanks including 2700 medium and heavy (T34 & KV) vs. about 3 thousand german tanks, none of them medium or heavy?
 You would think that a country that had so many tanks would have enough rifles. It's just that sometimes the weapons were not where they were needed in all the confusion of the german's preemptive strike.

 Germans captured enourmous quantities of soviet armament and ammunition and used it for years. It was concentrated at the border for the russian aggression and was lost along with the most of the standing army.

miko--

Offline leonid

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miko,
I'm sorry you are so bitter toward Russia, and I'm sure there is nothing I could say that might make you reconsider your statements.  Such bitterness clouds fact, and creates convincing half-truths for its own sake.  It is unfortunate.

Incidently, Kozhedub ended the war as a major, and received his last Gold Star HSU right after the war ended.

------------------
leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-11-2000).]
ingame: Raz

fire_ant

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Quote
Originally posted by leonid:
miko,
I'm sorry you are so bitter toward Russia, and I'm sure there is nothing I could say that might make you reconsider your statements.  Such bitterness clouds fact, and creates convincing half-truths for its own sake.  It is unfortunate.

Incidently, Kozhedub ended the war as a major, and received his last Gold Star HSU right after the war ended.


Please don't be insulted.  Here in the USA we have a lot of people who are closet fascists because they think it's cute, having never experineced true fascism or any other totalitarian govenrment (yet).  Sometimes I am very embarrassed by my fellow Americans.  I wonder if this guys reformist analysis is as strict when he is examining the sordid history of our own country?  
Nevermind this rude jerk, thats my advice.

DB


Offline Jigster

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Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
There is an interview with the top Allied scorer, 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, at this location:

 http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2000/09002_1text.htm#top

Enjoy    

Sisu
-Karnak

Do you know the year/issue on that article?

Been going through my Aviation History binders and can't find it  

- Jig


funked

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Every country says that every other country's kill confirmations are bogus.  What else is new.  Kozhedub was a great pilot and hero.  Why diminish this with such remarks?

As for special treatment of aces, the US and the Nazis did this as well.


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-12-2000).]

Offline danish

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FWIW there is a new series of books comming out, vol. 1 hitting the street now:  Black Cross/Red Star : Vol. 1, Operation Barbarossa 1941.
Go http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0935553487/104-8174530-9427122

Not that it will help on statements as seen above.Readers Digest is so much easyer.

danish