Author Topic: Interview with 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, leading Allied scorer.  (Read 898 times)

Offline StSanta

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Well, what WERE the kill confirmation criteria?
 


Offline danish

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For the LW: a witness, the approval of your Komandeur and the final approval of the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe.The last point in effect made all claims primo marts 1945 onwards non-official, according to  Eric Mombeek "Reichverteidigung.Die Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 1 "Oseau"".

Col. Raymond F. Toliver, USAF (Ret.) & Trevor J. Constable have some interesting views in their "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe":

" On the Eastern Front, the Luftwaffe produced the highest scoring aces of all
 time.  They are Erich Hartmann, with 352 victories, Gerhard Barkhorn with 301,
 and Gunther Rall with 275 victories.  Other top-scoring Germans in Russia were
 Otto Kittel with 267 victories, Walter Nowotny with 258 downings, and Willi
 Batz with 237.  These men are but the top scorers.  There were numerous lower-
 scoring but eminent pilots such as "Macky" Steinhoff with 176 victories, Tony
 Hafner with 209, md Hermann Graf - one of Germany's popular wartime he-
 roes - with 212 aerial victories, and Wilter Scluck, 206 victory ace from the
 frozen north of Finland.
     These scores are enormous by the standards of the contemporary USAAF,
 RAF and Soviet Air Force.  There was a consequent reluctance, for many de-
 cades, to accept these huge German scores as valid.  This passed in due time, as
 non-German historians finally examined and analyzed German records and pro-
 cedures.
     The authors have spent sufficient time interviewing German aces, examin-
 ing records, logbooks, wing histories and other official documents over a forty
  year period, to have no doubt as to the thoroughness of the Luftwaffe scoring
 system.The German system was rigid.British and American scoring procedures were
 far less demanding, and allowed such mythical accredations as one half, one
 third  or three quarters of a victory - the so called shared victory.
  The German penchant for precision could not abide such ideas as a pilot
  down half an aircraft.  This fiction was eliminated by a simple set of rules.
  Were more than one pilot was involved in a downing, the pilots had to decide
  between themselves who best deserved the credit.  In the event of an im-
  passe, the downing was credited to the pilots' unit, with no individual pilot credit
  awarded.
  A typical case occurred on 22 March 1943, when First lieutenant Heinz-
  Schnaufer, later to become the top scoring night fighter ace of the war,
  a victory over an RAF Lancaster.  Captain Wilhelm Herget, later Major Herget and          credited with seventy-two victories by war's end, claimed the same aircraft.
  In the dark, both of them had engaged the same bomber.  General Kammhuber
  of the night fighters ordered the two aces to draw lots to settle the matter.
  Herget won.
  Under the USAAF system, by contrast, it was possible for a pilot to become an
  ace without ever scoring a clear victory of his own.  He could reach five victo-
  ries on shared credits.A mathematical substraction could become a substitute for genuine   achievements.The USAF contuined the quistionable tradition though the Korean War and into   the Vietnam conflict.In 1966, the USAF further  adulterated its already suspect victory   credits system by announcing that victories scored by USAF aircraft with a crew of two - a  pilot in the front seat and a "guy in back" - would be accredited by giving both pilots a   victory credit.  Thus, five enemy aircraft downed, creates two American aces!
        The Luftwaffe system was clearly more rational and realistic.  "One pilot -
  one victory" was the straight forward scoring rule.  Without a witness, a Luftwaffe
  pilot had no chance of victory confirmation.  Such a claim, even if filed. would
  not pass beyond his Gruppenkommandeur.
        The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or the bail-
  out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film, or by at least one
  other human witness.  This witness could be the German pilot's wingman, squad-
  ron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter.  There was no possibility, as
  with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claim-
  ing officer was a gendeman of his word.  The Luftwaffe rule was simply "no wit-
  ness - no victory credit."
        This rule applied universally in the Luftwaffe, no matter what the pilot's
  rank or ace status.  The authors have a photostatic copy of one of Galland's own
  wartime combat reports of a downing.  The report concludes with, "I resign the
  confirmation of this victory for lack of a witness."
        The Luftwaffe system was impartial, inflexible and far less error-prone than
  British or American procedures.  German fighter pilots sometimes had to wait
  more than a year for victory confirmation to reach them from the Luftwaffe High
  Command.  There are some examples in this book.
        The Germans differed radically from the Allies with the Luftwaffe's compli-
  cated "points' system, instituted to bring a modicum of uniformity into the be-
  stowal of higher decorations.  The Allies had no such points system.
        In effect only on the Western Front, points were awarded for decorations as
  follows:

        Single-engined plane destroyed 1 point
        Twin-engined plane destroyed 2 points
        Three-engined plane destroyed 3 points
        Four-engined plane destroyed 3 points
        Twin-engined plane damaged 1 point
        Three or four-engined plane damaged 2 points
        Final destruction, damaged twin-engined plane 1/2 point
        Final destruction, damaged four-engined plane 1 point

        The Germans set great store by the ability of a fighter pilot to separate indi-
  vidual Allied bombers from the box formations in which they flew.  Thus, a
  Luftwaffe pilot could not win points for damaging an Allied bomber unless he
  separated it from the box - the separation being known as Herauschuss.
        This points system for decorations, has been confused in past years with
  normal victory confirmation procedures.  Much inaccurate material has been
  written about the German scores because of this confusion.  A practical example
  of the two systems, as they worked during the war, mill provide clarification.
        Suppose it is early 1943, at which time forty points were needed to qualify a
  fighter pilot for the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.  Our hypothetical pilot, Captain   Flugmann, has already shot down and confirmed twenty-two single-
  engined fighters (twenty-two points), five twin-engined bombers (ten points), and
  two four engined bombers (six points).  Flugmann is an ace with twenty-nine victo-
  ries, but he has only thirty-eight points - not enough for his knight's Cross.
       Flugmann takes off next day and damages a B-17, separating it from its box
  formation.  He also brings about the final destruction of a second B-17 damaged
  previously by another German pilot.  Flugmann now has forty-one points, enough
  for his knight's Cross, but he is credited with thirty victories after reconciling the
  air battle with other pilots and getting victory credit for one of the bombers.
       This point-decoration system was used only on the Western Front, because
  the Germans believed it was easier to shoot down Russian fighters and bombers
  than to down Western-flown aircraft.  The Germans considered the mighty Al-
  lied bomber streams, with their lethal volumes of protective fire and hordes of
  escort fighters, to be a far tougher proposition than Soviet air power.
       Although the point-decoration system for the Eastern Front was not in ef-
  fect, victory-confirmation procedures and requirements were the same on both
  fronts.  Late in the war, there were pilots on the Eastern Front with over 100
  victories, who had still to receive the Knight's Cross awarded for forty points won
  in the West."


danish
                                         

Offline StSanta

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Thanks danish, *great* info  

I am quite sure our opportunist friends will say theirs is the more rigorous system. For the sake of objectivity, I'd like to see those as well.  



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Offline mx22

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StSanta,

Here is the info on scoring system. It taken from Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 15 "Soviet Aces of World War 2":

 
Quote
Returning to combat claim submissions, and their recognition by the VVS, SOviet ace Col Vladimir A Orekhov, who was credited with 19 personal and 3 group kills, described the process in an interview conducted by Sergey Kul'baka in Minsk in 1995;
'After the mission, pilots gathered together and everone spoke about how many aircraft they had shot down personally, and about those shot down by comrades that they had individually observed. The squadron adjutant wrote down these facts. This document was named the "Combat Report of Fulfilled Mission". It had to be filled out after every mission, and contained data concerning the results of the mission, and pilots who claimed kills. At the end of the day all such reports were collected in the regiment headquarters, and the regiment's own combat report was completed.
'The kills were usually confirmed by the commander of the regiment. To get confirmation one of the following "proofs" had to be available:
1)confirmation from at least two other pilots who took part in the fight
2)confirmation from ground troops
3)confirmation from partisans
4)verification on the seized terretory
'These forms of verification were equal, but sometimes - especially if the fight took place over enemy territory, and there were only two fighters involved - the last two "proofs" were obligatory.
'A confirmed kill was written into the pilot's flying log book, and this served as teh official recognition of the victory. Confirmation took place on the same day, if there were enough witnesses, or after some weeks or even months if confirmation from partisans on the ground was needed. At the beggining of the war the process of verification was much simplier because the Red Army was in retreat, so confirmation by other pilots was considered to be enough. The practice of dividing kills claims between "personal" kills and "in group" victories depended on the tradition of the particular regiment. In 32. Gv.IAP (Guard Fighter Air Regiment), all the kills were "personal", and every aircraft shot down "belonged" solely to the pilot who brought it down.'

Books goes on talking about recognition system, but I don't want to retype here the whoel chapter - too much work, plus if you are so interested, go get the book. It's less the $20 and is a fun read, like the rest of books from this series.

mx22

Offline StSanta

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Thanks mx22!

Now all we need is the Jap, Amurrcn and Brri th h hish ways.



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

funked

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AFAIK the Japanese did not keep score officially.

Concerning the Soviet verification system, I am reading Igor Kaberov's "Swastika In The Gunsight" and his unit (naval fighter unit in Leningrad area) used the method described by MX22.  Kaberov (28 kills) describes the gatherings after the mission, the use of confirmation from ground personnel, as well as many ground verifications.  

Nath-BDP

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One major factor with the Japanese score system is that when a pilot shot down another plane, the pilot's unit got the victory not the indivual pilot. Same goes with mistakes, if a pilot fcked up the unit would get punished.

Offline miko2d

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 Leonid,
 I am not bitter towards Russia, just the communists of all nations. I do not like Facists too, but only academically - never seen a live one or had to live under a facist regime (not that there is much difference).

 As for the Russia, quite the opposite. In my posts you will see that I am trying to prove that russians had a terrible start of war not because they were an inferior or stupid or ill prepared, or covardly, but because of the objective historical and military situation. That situation was brought on by Stalin, and not as a result of his stupidity either, as it is commonly assumed.

 Russians had to start a fight at a disadvantage against the Nazis they hated to protect the rule of communists they hated no less.
 They won all the wars they fought including the impossible Winter War aggression against Finland, but they are still pictured as incapable morons by most "historians" including their own.

 As for the Kozhedub, if you asked any child in Russia to name three famous war heros, Kozhedub would be one of them. He got all his medals and promotions for what he did during the war, no matter when he received them.
 He was a propaganda icon from early on in his career as an ace. His loss would have been a blow to their propaganda campain and so his survival was important to the communist regime.
 Thinking of them not using him in his propaganda is as impossible to me as for you to think of Coca-Cola coming up with a new drink and never mentioning it in an advertizement. People responsible for the communist propaganda during Stalins rule were extremely thorough in their work. If they screwed up they were not fired, they were shot.

miko--

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 08-12-2000).]

Offline Lizard3

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   Great thread guys! Lots of really interesting info.
   I just got through reading "The war diary of Hauptmann Helmut Lipfert" JG52 on the Russian front 1943-1945. Excellent book I recommend to all. isbn 0-88740-446-4 It has given me a much more indepth feel for the fighting that occured on the western front and the tactics used(or not used in some cases)by the pilots of both sides. It also has given me more of a historical perspective on some of the issues such as hiding in the ack, chute shooting(he only mentions it in reference to the Ami's trying to kill one of his freinds), and alt monkeys.
   Please keep up the banter, its a way to learn alot.  

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Lizard

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Hangtime

Offline GrinBird

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Ooops I was allmost involved in a political discussion here

[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-13-2000).]

Offline leonid

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miko,
About Kozhedub being a propaganda symbol for the Communist Party, I agree with you.  He was a party member since a young man (Komsomol).  He was not as critical as Pokryshkin about the VVS, and much handsomer too    Thus, a perfect chance for the Communist Party.

Still, he was a great pilot, and an ace.  That is what my point is - he was a good pilot.  Being communist has nothing to do with that.  Thus, it is irrelevant for this discussion, a side note.
ingame: Raz

Radegast

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Quote
Interview with 62 kill Russian Ace Marshal Ivan Kozhedub, leading Allied scorer
He is not Russian as writen in interview with him he was born at Ukraine. So he was Soviet ace or Ukrainne Ace nothing else. Thats tha same as saying that england won Battle of Britain.

Offline -lynx-

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Leonid - everyone in Soviet Union was a communist at some point from that point of view - you had no choice about Komsomol, OK?

miko - what makes you think that Galland et al were less a political figures then Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and others? Nazi regime in Germany was very similar to that of Stalin's Soviet Union. With massive brainwashing of millions, terror and physical destruction of those who dared to disagree.

And of course you "know better" - stuff those who'd fought and died for you now to sit pretty and belittle their sacrifice! If you're not "...trying to prove that russians had a terrible start of war not because they were an inferior or stupid or ill prepared, or covardly..." - how come you manage to achieve quite the opposite?

Whether you chose to believe that Kozhedub flew "free hunt" missions with just his wingmen is kinda not here or there. Quite a few Soviet fighter pilots managed to fly this type of missions without thinking whether future "history experts" decide if it was OK for them to do so.

I makes me sick sometimes to see how some guys from the States idolize German pilots. Hartmann & Co could obviously do no wrong killing YOUR OWN grandads in their droves. Ever been to Duxford? Saw thousands of silouettes of B17s and B24s etched on glass to show how many planes were lost over Germany? Now picture your very own grandad as a gunner on one of them and then discuss how valiant a pilot von Someone-or-Other was killing him... Geez. Kozhedub and others kept Hartmann and others busy on the Eastern Front - if your grandad was in the 8th AF you may owe this "commie" your very life. Be grateful.




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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

funked

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Agree 100% Lynx.  The Nazi propaganda pumped up the German aces just like the Soviets did with theirs.  Hell the Nazi propaganda is still effective to this day!  The myth of Luftwaffe superiority persists in the face of overwhelming evidence that... they got their tulips handed to them.

Offline mx22

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I have just ordered Black Cross/Red Star : Vol. 1, Operation Barbarossa 1941 I have seen their web site a while ago and knew authors coming out with a book, but didn't know it will be so soon   Barnesandnoble.com says it delivers same day in Manhatten (yea right, last time it took them 3 businees days or 5 days alltogether to deliver), so hopefully I'll get it today and have a chance posting small review about it here. Btw, book's website offers free chapter in pdf format.

mx22

[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 08-14-2000).]