Author Topic: Ethics question (Read 1896 times)

Leslie · « **Reply #30 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:09:27 PM »

It sounds like deductive reasoning to me MT. Please tell me if it's not, and what kind of reasoning it is.

Les

Ripsnort · « **Reply #31 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:13:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
I believe you aren't a racist Rip, hiowever this statement seems very racist. You cannot necessarily attribute the high crime rate to race. It may be due to economics, unemployment rate, single parent families etc. Your figures are correct, your conclusions are suspect.

"because of cultural surroundings...

I covered that, but evidently, not thoroughly enough. The conversation was ended abruptly.

(and thks for your response, I did want to hear what you had to say about this subject)

Karnak · « **Reply #32 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:39:29 PM »

It depends on how you portray the data. It can be used in a racist manner and it can also be used in a non-racist manner.

If you portray it as the excessively simplistic "Blacks are more violent" then it could be reasonably seen as racist, even if you did not intend it that way.

If you portray it as a blunt fact or as a fact with complex causes then I would not see it as racist. That doesn't mean the person you are talking with won't see it as racist, but many people are, er, unduly sensitive.

Personally I think that poverty and massive criminalization are the root causes of this statistic.

(Hey Ripsnort, are you going to make it to the West Coast Mini Con?)

Leslie · « **Reply #33 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:48:55 PM »

One time my hunting buddy and I went to What-a Burger at 4 in the morning to eat breakfast. It was cold weather, about 14 degrees outside.

Two girls, about 18, were sitting at a booth not far from ours. They commented, "You guys are hunters?" Kinda derisive.

My friend replied, "I bet you girls have been out dancing." They just looked at us with a blank stare. My friend then said, "Been drinking too, I suppose." And they nodded their heads.

LOL...they didn't say anything after that.

Les

AKIron · « **Reply #34 on:** September 10, 2003, 11:30:18 PM »

If it's not racist to claim there is a disproportionate number of black males in our prison system then it's not racist to "statisticalize" black males in gun related crimes. Wondering if you see where I'm going with this MT.

Gadfly · « **Reply #35 on:** September 10, 2003, 11:43:10 PM »

Newspeak: NonPC=Racist

Moral-talk about the donuts and the Seahawks at work and save the debate for OT.

Karnak · « **Reply #36 on:** September 11, 2003, 12:03:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gadfly
Newspeak: NonPC=Racist.

Only an idiot would belive this is true. That goes for both the PCophile and the PCophobe.

I love how Conservatives always fall back on the tired old "Liberals just want PC crap" argument. Its so much easier than actually thinking about what said Liberal is saying.

I happen to agree with you that PC is BS. However, not every race subject is PC BS.

This isn't a PC matter of calling people negroes, blacks or african-americans. It is about perceptions and causes. If somebody claims that black men have a higher death rate due to violence and a higher incarceration rate because blacks are just more violent and lawless that is racist.

The facts are that in the USA blacks do have a higher death rate due to violence and a higher incarceration rate. That is a fact. But the reasons for it are much more complicated and difficult than a simpleminded "Blacks are just that way".

Gadfly · « **Reply #37 on:** September 11, 2003, 07:01:34 AM »

Karnak, Rips dilemmia is an example of what I stated. Who said Liberal? I said PC.

Maniac · « **Reply #38 on:** September 11, 2003, 07:26:42 AM »

Quote

Yeah, thats why I dated a black woman when I was 22, because I'm racist!

Im not calling you an racist Rip...

BUT

The thing i find funny is that people always have to "prove" that they are not racists... Like the quoted post above...

Rip could just have said, "im not an racist" but he said "Yeah, thats why I dated a black woman when I was 22, because I'm racist!"

Ive seen this alot... I´m not an racist i have a black neihbour...

Dowding · « **Reply #39 on:** September 11, 2003, 07:32:29 AM »

Also "I'm not a racist, but..." tends to mean "I am a racist and...".

lazs2 · « **Reply #40 on:** September 11, 2003, 08:43:56 AM »

I figure I've won when the only retort to facts are that I am a "racist".

MT... how is it racist pointing out that most homicides with firearms are committed by one race? Would it be racist if the group were white? is it racist or sexist to point out that more than 90% of serial killers are white males?

facts are facts. if you have other facts... add em... if say the person had said.. Yeah but they were all poor with single parents or no parents... well, that would be relevant too. single parents and poor people might take offense tho I suppose.

If not being shot is important to you.... you might want to avoid poor black neighborhoods or... you might want to go armed if you can't. The information is useful.

If you are going about trying to solve a problem like say, firearms homicides.... to ignore what groups are doing what is just stupid. unless of course... you have an agenda that has nothing to do with actually solving the problem.
lazs

LePaul · « **Reply #41 on:** September 11, 2003, 08:49:02 AM »

Rip,

I've found from my chats here in the office that despite oodles of information, facts and more...the biased opinions of some people can't be turned.

When someone is convinced their views are absolute, the discussion has ended.

I go thru a lot of that here...but that's another long long thread on coworkers who think the world owes them free healthcare and other things for their special needs kid.

AKIron · « **Reply #42 on:** September 11, 2003, 08:53:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
The facts are that in the USA blacks do have a higher death rate due to violence and a higher incarceration rate. That is a fact. But the reasons for it are much more complicated and difficult than a simpleminded "Blacks are just that way".

Not sure if you are attributing an assumption to me by my post. If so then you are typical of those that cry racist anytime someone mentions skin color.

Since MT didn't bite but you did I'll explain my post. It is the black community that is crying foul over the disproportionately large number of black males in prison. Citing numbers based solely on race is a two edged sword. If it is appropriate to cite one (stats of a race in prison) then it is appropriate to cite the other (stats of crimes committed by that race). Sorry, but you just can't have it both ways.

Gunthr · « **Reply #43 on:** September 11, 2003, 09:37:21 AM »

Quote

Question:
Is bringing up facts and data racist today?

Why do liberals get so bent out of shape when faced with facts and data?

Facts and data are never racist, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that the other person is infering that you have drawn racist conclusions from the data. That is what needs to be addressed.

This is exactly the issue that is the basis for all the controversy surrounding the book, "The Bell Curve" (Herrnstein & Murray, New York: The Free Press, 1994).

Lance · « **Reply #44 on:** September 11, 2003, 09:45:48 AM »

Didn't read through the whole thread, but here goes...

The fact isn't racist. Your determination that the number difference is because of black culture could be construed to be racist, however. The number disparity could be for any number of reasons, such as economic, environmental, etc...

i.e. your results would be totally different if you didn't count all white people vs. all black people, which as a whole do not have the same socio-economic standing, and instead counted whites and blacks in similar situations. For instance, how many gun death's per 100,000 poor, jobless white people living in inner city housing projects would there be compared to blacks in the same situation? I'd bet that if the numbers weren't virtually the same they'd at least be a hell of a lot closer. Likewise, if you only counted blacks that worked for Boeing, drove beemers and lived in the suburbs and compared them against white's in the same socio-economic situation, your numbers would be closer if not identical as well.

That study would need to have more breakdowns of white/black gun violence and show that economics and enviornment have a negligble effect on the statistics for it to really support your argument that black culture is the primary reason behind their gun-related deaths, Rip.