Finally proof AHs FM is wrong!

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Kadesh
Vulcan (Vulkan in WW2OL) neglects to mention that this film is from BEFORE the recent FM update.

But then again Vulcan, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story

Well, the FM hasn't changed it. It still does the same thing. In fact after the upgrade the 109F now does it as well. So it has in fact got worse, not better.

The 109E still departs flight in a crazy fashion often ending up flying backwards or perpendicular, usually kicks in at around 250-300km/h. Hardly just above stall speed is it?

Any more truths you want me to reveal?

[Gadfly]

You are fooling yourself if you think he used rudder only in that video.  As I said, I made the plane in AH do exactly what that one did.

[Mathman]

Originally posted by Gadfly
You are fooling yourself if you think he used rudder only in that video.  As I said, I made the plane in AH do exactly what that one did.

Is the rudder the only control surface that has visible movement in WW2OL?  B/c when I watch that vid, the only thing i see moving is the rudder.  The ailerons and elevator do not move at all.

[Fishu]

Mathman,

Meh..  the control surfaces have moved since the 1.0 (the first 1.0, not this second 1.0..)

Which reminds me that WWIIOL actually models the control surface movement on 109 better than AH, IL2, WB...:

1. hey, you can see the slats popping in and out!
2. What the..  elevator trim doesn't move the elevator, but moves the WHOLE horizontal stabilizer!

So I'd say they got at least the control surfaces done better than majority of the games.


Vulcan,

Okey.. cannot resist saying this anymore:
Structucal damage has been there all along, albeit most likely the way to go down was burning or/and P/K rather than loosing a wing.

Perhaps you mean the stress damage as the new thing...

[Vulcan]

Ummm Gadfly, I play the game, I can replicate pretty easily just moving the rudder.

Fishu, if structural damage is there....
 - why does striking the prop on the ground do no damage
 - why does striking an object with a wingtip or the tail do no damage
 - why does hitting the airframe extremities do no damage (tails, wingtips etc)
 - why can an airframe hit the ground with a heavy impact and not take any damage


You never see aircraft go down with structural damage like we often see in AH. Especially in the scenario's or CT where you have Hurris vs 109s and 110s. You know what I mean, that nose up loss of stability when a Hurri gets its butt shot off. And I have yet to experience anything like a structural hit either.

I've never heard of a structural failure in the game, no wings ripped, no tail shot off etc. From experience, there seems to be no damage applied to the airframe itself, nor the gear (apart from 'jamming'), nor the prop.

I think a lot of the info about the game is Smoke'n'Mirrors, with a little confusion thrown in by the fanboys.

Think, have you ever been hit in WW2OL and had your plane lose control like it does when a wing gets blown off in AH?

[Fishu]

Vulcan,

I wasnt talking about the ground hitting things, but the damage by weapons vs. structure.

and yes, wings has seemingly been ripped off at times in WWIIOL, just not visibly, but control wise the same.
Albeit most common cause is the fire or P/K, since it's bloody easy to flame up the planes in WWIIOL (boo) and with some planes cause P/K (like 1 hit wonder He111.. does not only burn easy, but pilot gets easily shot up through the whole plane)

Like in one case over a town with He111, when I didn't amazingly burn... got hit by something after the bombs drop and the plane banked over to the right and began diving - barely recovered from it and felt like a big chunk of the right wing was gone and limped back home.

At one time the wings there were problems with the wing damage of some planes and some planes had damage applied too lightly.

but yeah, it's been there.. just with bit changing results.


When it's worked correctly, it's been better than feeling than AH's.
If the wing gets a smaller chunk blown off, it's also felt like it... when a bigger chunk tears apart, it's also felt like different size of holes are found from the wing.
AH structucal damage = on/off.. you either have it or you don't.

...obviously the rats have been doing some job lately to improve the damage models on the planes.


Although they completely messed up the FM audit and are planning already '42 tanks in the game (Stuart's mid '42 model), while axis still doesnt have a single 1941 ground item and even the SdKfz 251 is to be RDP vehicle initially (give me a totally tubular break already!!)
I won't be amazed if the rats uses US penetration tables for a reference when modelling stuarts 37mm.

You might ask whats the problem with usage of the US penetration tables?
Well, the german guns are modelled according to german penetration tests and they had far higher requirement to determine penetration than americans, who probably had the lousiest way to determine penetration = so.. for the game this means the following: the US guns would become significantly better than the other guns in relative terms.

My guess on that how it will go is: rats will model it according to the weight and velocity, but will use US tests for a reference and likely get some bias from it, when they adjust the values closer to the tests and underestimates the scale of difference between US & german tests.


So if they don't get their cheese together, they won't see me anymore.
So don't think I'm blindly siding with the rats.. just can't bypass such generalized claims (and false at that) even so.

[gatt]

Can you still turn with 90deg bank, full stick deflection and rudder without losing any E and alt ... or easily infinite-loop after take off?

No need of a good E management is what takes me away from WW2OL. IMHO, of course.

But probably not only IMO since WW2OL could have got a lot of mission oriented players both from WB and AH.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by gatt
Can you still turn with 90deg bank, full stick deflection and rudder without losing any E and alt ... or easily infinite-loop after take off?

No need of a good E management is what takes me away from WW2OL. IMHO, of course.

But probably not only IMO since WW2OL could have got a lot of mission oriented players both from WB and AH.

I don't remember being able to do the 90 deg bank so effectively..

but no, no more infinite loops except for 2 planes.

Spitfires does not only do loops, but they can *gain* altitude while looping.

Before the famous fight between Penttiku and Hatch about the engine model of 109, the 109 did perhaps 4 loops from a decent speed before becoming very dangerous to loop any further without crashing on the ground.
After Hatch finally checked the values instead of arguing with Penttiku...  well... banning stopped it..  he found something wrong with the engine model and since then 109 has done loops bit better, but still rather odd when compared to the other planes (especially infinite climber looper spits)

Brings to my mind that when I tested the planes offline... prior to 109 engine model change, the Havoc with full load was able to do more loops than the 109.
Probably still can be competitive.

It's funny seeing plane like P40 loop better than 109, considering the verticals werent it's strength at all (other than diving for speed..)
Same goes for D520, which has worse wingload than 109.

[Westy]

"You are fooling yourself if you think he used rudder only in that video."

 Then how did he remove the aileron movement? Aileron's move when viewed in the external view in WWIIO, as well as in AH and IL2.   So are you saying he edited that movie to suit some sinister motive and that's he's a liar and a charlatan?   (*just realised Mathman pointed that that out above)



"As I said, I made the plane in AH do exactly what that one did."

 Means nothing.  I would need more than that  (with your track record on trashing AH and HTC?!)  to believe it.



 As an FYI to (anyone reading) I took out another 1 week trial. To see the "new game" as touted by DocDoom. Well sure the graphics have gotten better but the GUI still sucks carp dung, same with that horrible radio, still have the typcial lack of help or advice on where to go at a fight to help when asking, cons still pop in and out -which is a major, MAJOR pita as it's impossible to know if they died and despawned or if it's the hosts crap bias code (or lack of code) doing it's magic. The new supply and spawn rules have pretty much eliminated lone wolfing and I have no desire o join a squad, let alone a group of l337 pimple tweaking twits who think fart jokes over vox are the end all.\
 However the number one change (and this is HUGE) I saw was that WWIIO has become an Allies vulch fest on the Axis. I saw the map prior to my retrial and during it and the Allies simply steam roll over the Axis with hardly any effort. Why? Because the Allies have a better variety of equipment and the "got to win" lemmings have swamred over to the Allied side so that they now outnumber the axis by what has to be a 10:1 ratio.  At this point WWIIO is exactly like a simple, two sided, limited equipment main arena with the primary emphasis on getting points to earn rank with which to get binocs, SMG or better airplanes with which to pursue a simple land grab-capture the flag gameplay.

[Vulcan]

OK Fishu, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the structural damage thing. I know what I have not seen.

Maybe a test is in order sometime, a pumping of 20mm into a hurris wings or something.

[AKIron]

No need to press your case Vulcan. Anyone that has tried both wwiionline and ah knows there is little comparison. Anyone that hasn't will recognize it very quickly when they do.

[Gadfly]

I tested to prove to me it was possible; if you are happy with it(AH) what do I care?  Same for WWIIOL-I'm happy with it, what do you care?

I will say this, though.  Of all the online multiplayer games, WWIIOL is the least fun for lone wolves and those that desire instant action.  It is not designed that way, and will not provide you with fun if you are in a hurry and like to play alone.  Just the way it is.

[Batz]

bull**** gadfly,

air combat in wwiiol 90% is fly to an enemy airfield and vulch. It doesnt take team work to do that.

I just did tested ahs 109e4 by flapping the rudder like that with combat trim off/on and as the 109e stalls the left wing drops. But it does nothing like the wwiiol plane.

I filmed it to. I will clean out some web space later and post it. Butr anyone can test any ah plane and see that none react like that.

[Westy]

"WWIIOL is the least fun for lone wolves and those that desire instant action. It is not designed that way, and will not provide you with fun if you are in a hurry and like to play alone."

 Why are you trying to associate "lone wolfing" with people who want fast fun and instant action? I simply do_not_to_join_a_squad however I definately want what WWIIO offers when the game stopping bugs (for me) are resolved and the FM is refined.  I want more than "eye candy" immersion and maybe I just won't settle for mediocrity. Here is a quicky list of why decent immersion, beyond simple eye candy, is lacking in WWIIO for me...

Game & Games user Interface:

* Using a web portal to get online.  Browser ends up remaining open sucking up valuable system and connection resourses.
* horribly run forums. Lack of simple and SMALL avatars to offset the widespread use of idiotic signiature pictures. I dislike a lot fo the topics on the AH and AGW boards but WWIIO is far, FAR worse than either of those two on their worst day.
* free trial players have NO assistance available as they are not able to post on the boards to ask questions. And even then would they get any help or tips from CRS anyway unless know of AGW and the good ole boy WB's network? the email a ticket to CRS for help and response is a joke
* horrible map zoom in/out function on that GUI. It sucks. Period
* lack of onscreen tool tips. would help to decipher the icons for new players seen on the map. Make user selectable toggle off/on.
* having to manually end a sorty after being killed and simply not returning automatically to the debrief screen is screwy. As if I have anythitng else to do before I manually enter SHIFT-ECS to get back to the GUI screen.
* And then not it sucks not having any info as to what just killed you. Sure some will say that people in the real war did not get that info but then again after they died they stayed that way too. They didn't get to call "Mulligan!" and respawn to thier hearts content.
* help documents are still lacking a lot of detail. No explanation of trim for aircraft and you can't fly without it for example.  And there is no comprehensive key command list. After two years this is inexcusable imo.



 
         Gameplay Issues

* It's still simple capture the flag but with a gangbanging mentality more prevalent than anything I've ever seen in AH or WB's. Majority of players are score potatos pursing rank points by any means possible to gain access to weapons which might give them an edge in combat.  All the while contributing to the ultimate landgrab by any means possible - especially if it  means avoiding combat and being sneaky. I wish more milkrunning, base porking AH players had migrated over there to be quite honest.
* lack of a side-switch limiting tool. With so many players needing "to win the war" and not be on the losing side they switch over to the side that has an upper hand and further make things worse. As a results what is touted as a "sim" in reality has become a Quanking vulch'em arcade.
* you're unable to "blow" holes in the walls surrounding a base but enemy tanks and SMG wielders can shoot right thru these same walls and kill infantry or towed gun players? please. :eyeroll:
* You're locked into your "unit" or vehicle.  You can only use what you spawned with - no more. Players are unable to actively support thier mission further other than by retrunig tpo base, exiting and respawning. There is no rearming and nor any ability to exchange your weapon for one that was discarded. Examples; No ability to secure for use the binoculars/rifle/SMG from an enemy officer you just killed.  Nor any ability to kill an enemy truck/scout car driver and commandeer his vehicle to return to base.



   Infantry:

* heavy FPS hit when inside buildings. Graphics are FAR too low and plain for that.  So it's stagger, HDD chuck, stagger, HDD chunkc, stagger, lag, HDD kachunk untill you hopefully make it ouside and if you're lucky you can now run the gaunlet and try to escape the vulching enemy surrounding the building
* no preprogrammed voice "alerts."  Battlefield is far too "quiet." (figure it's too much to ask for built in game VOX)
* being killed inside buildings and bases made of brick and stone
* In-game WWIIO infantry look like crude robots. The infantry model with gun jutting forward from hip constantly is old and lame. Too many other games (even older) have a higher fidelity infantry modelling and it's inexcusable that WWIIO has not progress significantly on this.
* No indication of rounds impacting on EI.  Rifle and SMG bullets don't phase them visually. And HE rounds impacting close to infantry should blow bodies thru the air. Direct hits should literally obliterate them.
* And when being an infantryman other than emmediate "black death" screen or the silly "red out" wound effect there is no physical impact modelled after being hit by an enemy round. In a shooting duel the winner is whoever recovers from the redout "wound" effect first. No need to reposition for the next shot and there's never a loss of the use of a limb nor damage to the weapon.
* no first aid stations or ammo stores to get help at or at least reload from.
* rifle shots are far too powerful at long range. No noticable drop at all.  Simple "point & shoot"
* crude death "animation" is just too simplistic. The lurch forward and fall down bit is ancient and looks essentially the same as when an EI goes prone and ready to blow your prettythang off.
* slow mouse control movement and a the lame 45deg head "left and right" fature is anything BUT realistic.
* lack of being able to jump is plain silly. and I mean for jumping over or onto obstacles. Not the bunny hop to evade being hit as seen in BF:1942 et al.
* inability to look around beyond short up/down motion and same 45deg left/right head movement when riding on a vehicle is plain stupid. All these problems just so CRS can wag thier finger pompously and say they don't have arcade like Linda-blair  or six views? Gimme a break.
* lack of ability to bring weapon to bear while riding on any vehicle is highly unrealistic.
* watching aircraft wink in and out on thier attack runs as well as flying through buildings or even under ground and then back up again is a joke.  
* screen flashes from ALL nearby small arms firing and grenade explosions is completely fantastical.  Especially when it occurs in the bright of day. It should  impact a shooters night vision when it is dark but it's far too hoky as it is modelled when during daylight battles when my screen is constantly flashing.  





   Guns/Vehicles

* anti-tank and ack-ack rounds blocked by trees branches and leaves.
* No AI "haulers" to offset the lack of being able to get a tow.  Or at least one that does not go off on a joy ride, CTD or crash.
* lack of six view! Via the no torso/neck movement modelling. Not very realistic at all in the long run. The basis for all "vehicles" coming from aircraft modelling was short sighted and incredibly has not been changed since the release.
* Simplistic damage visuals. Damage accumulates but no need to reposition the gunsight on the target. Used to get killed by pistol wielding EI but have yet to try tanks this release to see if it still happens.  But from an infantry mans POV al I see is generic black/silver dots where rounds hit possibly followed by crude smoke and then if the tanker is dead it burns a bit before simply dissappearing. No physical effect seen when a round hits a tank. Tank does not real from the it nor "blow up" nicely after the player has despawned.  At least there's a recoil effect when a tank fires a round.



  Aircraft

* dissappearing con issue seriously impacts flying in WWIIO the most. With the next item and the FM problems I find WWIIO to be my last choice for a place to "fly" online.
* lack of CH Products 8-way hat support. Why is this still an issue after being brought up in closed beta and several times after? What's the problem?
* inability to bail.
* lack of visual damage beyond the simple "crash & burn."
* lack of damage from colliding with inanimate objects other than when fully crashing into trees or buildings.
* unable to select ordinance or amount of fuel


  Ships.

* Never tried the "river" boat. No comment on their function or use but they are easy to kill.
* they do look silly gliding on the water with no wake as they move though.


Westy

[Horn]

Originally posted by Westy
"WWIIOL is the least fun for lone wolves and those that desire instant action. It is not designed that way, and will not provide you with fun if you are in a hurry and like to play alone."

 Why are you trying to associate "lone wolfing" with people who want fast fun and instant action? I simply do_not_to_join_a_squad however I definately want what WWIIO offers when the game stopping bugs (for me) are resolved and the FM is refined.  I want more than "eye candy" immersion and maybe I just won't settle for mediocrity. Here is a quicky list of why decent immersion, beyond simple eye candy, is lacking in WWIIO for me...

Game & Games user Interface:

* Using a web portal to get online.  Browser ends up remaining open sucking up valuable system and connection resourses.
* horribly run forums. Lack of simple and SMALL avatars to offset the widespread use of idiotic signiature pictures. I dislike a lot fo the topics on the AH and AGW boards but WWIIO is far, FAR worse than either of those two on their worst day.
* free trial players have NO assistance available as they are not able to post on the boards to ask questions. And even then would they get any help or tips from CRS anyway unless know of AGW and the good ole boy WB's network? the email a ticket to CRS for help and response is a joke
* horrible map zoom in/out function on that GUI. It sucks. Period
* lack of onscreen tool tips. would help to decipher the icons for new players seen on the map. Make user selectable toggle off/on.
* having to manually end a sorty after being killed and simply not returning automatically to the debrief screen is screwy. As if I have anythitng else to do before I manually enter SHIFT-ECS to get back to the GUI screen.
* And then not it sucks not having any info as to what just killed you. Sure some will say that people in the real war did not get that info but then again after they died they stayed that way too. They didn't get to call "Mulligan!" and respawn to thier hearts content.
* help documents are still lacking a lot of detail. No explanation of trim for aircraft and you can't fly without it for example.  And there is no comprehensive key command list. After two years this is inexcusable imo.



 
         Gameplay Issues

* It's still simple capture the flag but with a gangbanging mentality more prevalent than anything I've ever seen in AH or WB's. Majority of players are score potatos pursing rank points by any means possible to gain access to weapons which might give them an edge in combat.  All the while contributing to the ultimate landgrab by any means possible - especially if it  means avoiding combat and being sneaky. I wish more milkrunning, base porking AH players had migrated over there to be quite honest.
* lack of a side-switch limiting tool. With so many players needing "to win the war" and not be on the losing side they switch over to the side that has an upper hand and further make things worse. As a results what is touted as a "sim" in reality has become a Quanking vulch'em arcade.
* you're unable to "blow" holes in the walls surrounding a base but enemy tanks and SMG wielders can shoot right thru these same walls and kill infantry or towed gun players? please. :eyeroll:
* You're locked into your "unit" or vehicle.  You can only use what you spawned with - no more. Players are unable to actively support thier mission further other than by retrunig tpo base, exiting and respawning. There is no rearming and nor any ability to exchange your weapon for one that was discarded. Examples; No ability to secure for use the binoculars/rifle/SMG from an enemy officer you just killed.  Nor any ability to kill an enemy truck/scout car driver and commandeer his vehicle to return to base.



   Infantry:

* heavy FPS hit when inside buildings. Graphics are FAR too low and plain for that.  So it's stagger, HDD chuck, stagger, HDD chunkc, stagger, lag, HDD kachunk untill you hopefully make it ouside and if you're lucky you can now run the gaunlet and try to escape the vulching enemy surrounding the building
* no preprogrammed voice "alerts."  Battlefield is far too "quiet." (figure it's too much to ask for built in game VOX)
* being killed inside buildings and bases made of brick and stone
* In-game WWIIO infantry look like crude robots. The infantry model with gun jutting forward from hip constantly is old and lame. Too many other games (even older) have a higher fidelity infantry modelling and it's inexcusable that WWIIO has not progress significantly on this.
* No indication of rounds impacting on EI.  Rifle and SMG bullets don't phase them visually. And HE rounds impacting close to infantry should blow bodies thru the air. Direct hits should literally obliterate them.
* And when being an infantryman other than emmediate "black death" screen or the silly "red out" wound effect there is no physical impact modelled after being hit by an enemy round. In a shooting duel the winner is whoever recovers from the redout "wound" effect first. No need to reposition for the next shot and there's never a loss of the use of a limb nor damage to the weapon.
* no first aid stations or ammo stores to get help at or at least reload from.
* rifle shots are far too powerful at long range. No noticable drop at all.  Simple "point & shoot"
* crude death "animation" is just too simplistic. The lurch forward and fall down bit is ancient and looks essentially the same as when an EI goes prone and ready to blow your prettythang off.
* slow mouse control movement and a the lame 45deg head "left and right" fature is anything BUT realistic.
* lack of being able to jump is plain silly. and I mean for jumping over or onto obstacles. Not the bunny hop to evade being hit as seen in BF:1942 et al.
* inability to look around beyond short up/down motion and same 45deg left/right head movement when riding on a vehicle is plain stupid. All these problems just so CRS can wag thier finger pompously and say they don't have arcade like Linda-blair  or six views? Gimme a break.
* lack of ability to bring weapon to bear while riding on any vehicle is highly unrealistic.
* watching aircraft wink in and out on thier attack runs as well as flying through buildings or even under ground and then back up again is a joke.  
* screen flashes from ALL nearby small arms firing and grenade explosions is completely fantastical.  Especially when it occurs in the bright of day. It should  impact a shooters night vision when it is dark but it's far too hoky as it is modelled when during daylight battles when my screen is constantly flashing.  





   Guns/Vehicles

* anti-tank and ack-ack rounds blocked by trees branches and leaves.
* No AI "haulers" to offset the lack of being able to get a tow.  Or at least one that does not go off on a joy ride, CTD or crash.
* lack of six view! Via the no torso/neck movement modelling. Not very realistic at all in the long run. The basis for all "vehicles" coming from aircraft modelling was short sighted and incredibly has not been changed since the release.
* Simplistic damage visuals. Damage accumulates but no need to reposition the gunsight on the target. Used to get killed by pistol wielding EI but have yet to try tanks this release to see if it still happens.  But from an infantry mans POV al I see is generic black/silver dots where rounds hit possibly followed by crude smoke and then if the tanker is dead it burns a bit before simply dissappearing. No physical effect seen when a round hits a tank. Tank does not real from the it nor "blow up" nicely after the player has despawned.  At least there's a recoil effect when a tank fires a round.



  Aircraft

* dissappearing con issue seriously impacts flying in WWIIO the most. With the next item and the FM problems I find WWIIO to be my last choice for a place to "fly" online.
* lack of CH Products 8-way hat support. Why is this still an issue after being brought up in closed beta and several times after? What's the problem?
* inability to bail.
* lack of visual damage beyond the simple "crash & burn."
* lack of damage from colliding with inanimate objects other than when fully crashing into trees or buildings.
* unable to select ordinance or amount of fuel


  Ships.

* Never tried the "river" boat. No comment on their function or use but they are easy to kill.
* they do look silly gliding on the water with no wake as they move though.


Westy

So, um, other than that tho, you really like the game?

h
(ROFL)