The most dangorous pilots in AH

[Pongo]

Flying last night, I ran into some of what I consider to be the most dangorous pilots in AH. And it occured to me what they have in common.
 In WW2 it is almost univerally aggreed that Eyesight and in particular Gunnery were the factors that made a particular pilot more dangorous. In AH where eyesight is all even it would stand to reason that something would take its place in the top attributes that a deadly pilot has in AH.
Here is my opinion.
The guys that I find the most dangorous are the guys that are hard to hit. Most of them in my expericance are not hard to get in your sights..(or not unduly so) but given a promising sight picture many of the deadlier pilots in AH will fly away from my shot while many others will be hit hard.
At the time I shoot they typically are not flying level or straight. They have thier AC in some kind of contortion or other. They are not warping. Their AC is not doing anything unnatural usualy. But when my rounds pass through their airspace. They keep going.
I dont think that a reasonable person would accuse me of being a bad shot. But I get an expectation that I will hit if I get the bogy into a certain situation..And against this group of players. I miss instead or lightly ping them..Often I have pushed the envelope for that high probability shot and I am left in trouble when it does not deliver.
I have come to the conculsion that the thing that took the place of Eyesight in AH as far as INDIVIDUAL deadlyness goes is fire evasion teqnique.
These guys have been told or figured out how to drasticaly reduce the incidence of damage they will sustain when fired appon.
This is of course not the primary reason for their effectivenss, they can shoot and fly like demons too. They often bring support and they have great SA.  All the Best pilots in the game have those qualities. It is the fire evasion teqnigue that I think sets them appart.

Am I full of it...

[SC-GreyBeard]

Somewhat..    

I don't understand your reference to eyesight being even...  The better monitors/systems/connects play a huge part in it. (taking the place of the keen eyesight)

what I see on my 15" 800x600 resolution is a LOT different than what someone with a 21" 1600x1200 high end graphics machine "can" see.. and the "can" is important here.

and Yes, I understand that not all the hot sticks have hot setups..  

While I have no doubt about the ability of some pilots to evade getting hit, the system etc. being used also plays a major role.

'of course, then there are guys like me, blind in 1 eye, can't see outta the other, regardless of system...
and can't hit the side of a barn even when standing parked on the inside...

------------------
GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"

[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 08-12-2000).]

[Tac]

I think its their gear. A pilot with thrust and rudder pedals has a very superior advantage over a keyboard-4 button/hat stick pilot. I flew AH from my cousin's system (he has all those toys) and its AMAZING how much E you can conserve *just* thanks to the fine-control those toys give you. A manouver I usually do in a 38, starting from 400 mph in my computer always exits at about 150-200 mph. With the toys I exited at 280-320 mph. Nice huh?

[funked]

Even with a crappy monitor, the neon billboards are stilly pretty big!

[StSanta]

Heh I wonder what RAM would be able to do if he had a good HOTAS rig  



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Hangtime]

I'm with Pongo on this.. there are those that no matter how well I set up the shot.. no joy.

Best example that comes to mind is Hblair.. He'd chopped through two of my squaddies at low alt in a tense furball.. looked like it was a three v one.. the one was Hblair.

I was about d20 out.. low dots vis; and I'm listening to the fight ON RW as I come barreling in. As I get closer, the numbers aginst Hblair get even worse for him.. now it's five v 1. Hblair is in a 109; in the weeds. Three guys are tight on him working for a shot.. 2 in front of him. Hblair gets one; instantly reverses his turn.. the three over shoot, he get one of them. He reverses his turn again.. a roll-away, and as I get on him I take a shot.. it goes wide. He's reversed direction again.. gone low. He tags another and reverses his direction again. No manuver is smooth.. the direction his nose is pointed is NOT where he's going.
I see the cross control moves he's using now.. impossible to land a tracking shot.

I pull up and over the fight; literally get above him and roll inverted to see which way he goes.. two more guys are making tracking shot passes at him. Both miss. One augers.

Now; truly amazed I update SA.. still 4 of us on him.. and he's gotten at least 4 of us while I watched. All of them via superb evasives and gunnery, all from the bottom of the E envelope in a plane not noted fer turn-fighting in the weeds.

This is an agressive and exceptionaly alert pilot.. he knows when he's in my gun envelope and he knows how to fox a tracking shot with a sideslip.. not excessive; just enuff to force the shot wide, and he retains enuff 'e' to capitalise on the overshoot.

I drop down for my second pass.. and squirt a shot at where he's going, Pull up briskly; roll inverted and come back to where he went the last time.. anticipating the roll-away reverse.

There he is.. crossing up; setting himself up for my overshoot. I'd say about 50 yards off his left side and crossing fast.. and I have one snapshot opportunity at very close range. If i miss; I'm meat.. he's perfectly positioned for my overshoot. I can see interseting details.. the canopy frame.. the flaps.. the control surfaces defected.. all frozen in a frame of time; square in my gunsights. One shot opportunity.. 'miss it and yah die Hang'... I squeeze...

THATS what Pongo is talking about.. pilots that have their plane so well dialed in.. have their SA so well locked, know how to use defensive/offensive manuvers and know exactly when and how to switch from defense to offense that you MUST get in close.. unreasonably close, 'blow the shot and yah die close' to get him. He forces the situation, no matter how badly outnumbered he may be, into a 'come on in here, hugahunk, and I'll kill yah' situation.. you either get him on that pass or he gets you. You think you are in a comfortable 2 or 3 v one.. and suddenly find yourself in a 'kill or be killed knife fight' in a heartbeat.

Pongo.. I agree. Some of us can fly offense.. some are pretty good shots. But it's the guys that can switch from defense to offense in a spit second in time and can force an apparently easy shot wide then capitalize on the overshoot that are the real killers in this sim. I defintly need to work on my defense.. and Hblair is an excelent teacher.  

Salute Hblair. !

Hang

[Nath-BDP]

[Jigster]

Me with gas. One hit and the whole arena will turn into a fireball.

Or did you mean pilot skill?

 

- Jig

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
Heh I wonder what RAM would be able to do if he had a good HOTAS rig  

LOL...and a good computer wich gives me more than 15 FPS wont hurt either...

But well I am happy with the F-16 combatstick and keyboard  

THANKS SAW!!!!!  

[hblair]

Now cut that out hangtime! You're gonna cause my head to swell.  

No kidding, reading that story was cool, and knowing it was about me was even better.   Maybe that'll help keep my mind off the slump that I've been in lately.

No HOTAS here, just a microsoft stick and pedals. Cool thread jigster.

[Thunder]

HangTime,

I have to agree with you concerning hblair. He is the master of the "25ft-on the deck sissors" and kills you on the over shoot. Maybe if we swell his head until it bursts then he may go away!  

<S> hblair

Thunder

[Pongo]

My observation is more narrow than Hangs. Yes there are guys that can make moves that keep them just out of your sight picture(frenchy) and Hblair is definalty one of them. But jump ahead to the end game. you have commited to get that extra few points of nose up to get him right in your sight picture, just like you have seen many times before. It is definatly a high probability  250 yard shot at a manuvering target. You fire the rounds reach out and you notice his plane is not smooth, its not warping but its using opisite controls for pitch and yaw or somthing or then nose is osiclating or something. The rounds pass right through his airspace without a white spark.
Was it an
OOOOhhhh I missed,
or did his control inputs at the time of the shot have something to do with the end result. In combination with manuver skills and sa like some of these guys have coming out of a pass like that without a scratch is often the decisive factor.
I bring this up for several reasons.
It is not unique to one pilot. It is not new. It has been happening since beta. It has no basis in reality. The plane has a volume, projectiles enter an area largly poplulated by that volume, no amout of movement within that volume will lessen the chance of the projectiles hitting.
I have seen pilots in 190s roll about thier axis when in a bad situation. As if the fact that the plane is rolling in place will lessen the chance of rounds hitting that are other wise on target. It should not. But I have seen F4us and 190s both servive with this teqnique.
There are pilots here that at a point in a combat stop trying to defeat the other pilot and work on defeating the gunfire algorithms.  They are successfull at it.
Thats what I think anyway.

[StSanta]

Gotta second that about hblair. Me and Kirin were winging at 33, and had loads and loads of fighters coming. We were both very low on fuel, so we decide to rtb. Kirin reports a 109 closing on his 6, so i reverse and go for the kill (mg's only, unfortunately). I get some good hits, the 109 starts scissors. Piece a cake I think. Then he suddenly drops his nose in a negative g maneuver and that throws me totally off.

We decide to rtb and make glider landings. Reup, and lo and behold, a 109 closing in our hi 6. I go left, kirin right; the chase is on. Soon I find myself in a favourable position; enemy starts scissoring. I think "where have I seen this before?", put stick forward just as enemy does, and this time enough cannon rounds hit the target to get it.

That was hblair, again. My first pass in the earlier sortie had taken out his alieron, and he *still* managed a decent scissors.

<S!>



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Torque]

I've seen that quite alot Pongo and it has got me puzzled too.



[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 08-13-2000).]

[MANDOBLE]

Pongo, IMO, you are describing the "pilots hardest to kill". I know a bunch of them. But the real danger ones are those that will kill you over'n over, and you'll see those ones very few times on deffensive. I also know some of them, and once you got the advantage, they are usually dead (not good ones evading). These pilots dont play a flight sim, they seem to play a chess game.
IMO, these pilots are not the best ones, but, with no doubt, they are the most dangerous.