Author Topic: Browning Automatic Rifle (Read 2600 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #45 on:** September 15, 2003, 08:31:03 AM »

weird what troops think is a great enemy weapon. The gernans rarely picked up captured Garrands even tho they were far superior to the 98 as a battle rifle.. they rarely picked up the thompson or m3 grease gun even tho it was a great sub gun.. also.. they never used the 1911 pistol even tho it was far superior to the luger and just as good or better than the p38... we never picked up or used mg34's even tho we were scared to death of em.. They never used captured 50 cals even tho they were scared to death of em...

the germans LOVED the m1 carbine with it's underpowered round. It was light tho and you could carry a ****load of captured ammo and then throw it away I guess and pick up a mauser. It was all about the ammo compatability. The mg's and 98's used the same round. you wouldn't want to be the one guy with a Garrand and a bandolier of ought sixes in a fire fight. the luger and p38 used the same pissant 9mm as the mp40. 1911 used the 45 acp same as grease gun.
lazs

davidpt40 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 15, 2003, 08:44:53 AM »

Your right fishu, I did some checking and the cyclic rate is 1200rpm. I must have confused the MG3 with U.S. weapons.

Lazs, wouldn't the sound a gun makes be a discouraging factor too? The MG42 has a very distinctive noise, as does almost any weapon. Might cause alot of friendly fire incidents.

lazs2 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 15, 2003, 08:57:18 AM »

yep.. that is the case too. In vietnam AK 47's were outlawed for recon or regular troops. even the tracers were a different color.

in WWII the germans used to listen to the "ping" that meant the Garrand had ejected it's clip...Gi's took to throwing an empty clip against something hard to get the german soldier to think he was dry... the Garrand would fire under any circumstance allmost and you could fire 8 rounds semi automatic and very controlled... teh garrand is a long stroke gas system that is very gentile and with no magazine hanging down you can fire prone and not give away your position or have your arms (or worse) exposed when you work the bolt like bolt action rifles.

The real disadvantage of the garrond was it's inability to add to the clip once it was inserted.. if you fired two rounds you now had 6 let with no real way to replace the used rounds except to dump the whole clip... you also could not load clips withn less than 8 rounds. None of these things were looked at as disadvantages tho by the troops... weight was.
lazs

Fishu · « **Reply #48 on:** September 15, 2003, 10:07:52 AM »

I wonder how you reload your bolt-action rifle, lazs2

Dune · « **Reply #49 on:** September 15, 2003, 11:59:50 AM »

Fishu, I'm not sure if this is what you're asking, but you cannot add more ammo to a Garand clip once you've started firing. There is a spring-loaded plate in the bottom that pushes the cartridges up to be taken by the bolt. You can't push the top cartridges down to add more.

if that made any sense

lazs2 · « **Reply #50 on:** September 17, 2003, 08:56:16 AM »

fishu... what are yu talking about?

single rounds can be loaded in bolt action rifles magazines... they can be recharged at any point... some bolt action rifles even have a magazine cutoff that keeps the magazine full while you load individual rounds in the chamber.
lazs

Mathman · « **Reply #51 on:** September 17, 2003, 10:35:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by davidpt40
Jeeze mathman, your joke was so horrible that I actually feel sorry for you

What a coincidence, that's the way I feel whenever I read ANY of your posts. I would avoid them, but its like a wreck on the freeway, you just have to look sometimes.

Fishu · « **Reply #52 on:** September 17, 2003, 12:32:31 PM »

Lazs2,

I mean't this:

"you can fire prone and not give away your position or have your arms (or worse) exposed when you work the bolt like bolt action rifles."

I just wonder how you pull the bolt if you expose yourself that well

but since you said this:

"single rounds can be loaded in bolt action rifles magazines... they can be recharged at any point... some bolt action rifles even have a magazine cutoff that keeps the magazine full while you load individual rounds in the chamber. "

I might add that the rifles usually had also capability to accept bullet strips aside single bullets.
Kar98 could loaded with one 5 round strip and Lee-Enfield loaded with 2 strips.
No need to add rounds invidually if you had the strips

lazs2 · « **Reply #53 on:** September 17, 2003, 01:00:22 PM »

working the bolt causes more movement than simply pulling the trigger.

I am aware that the magazines for bolt rifles can be loaded with stripper clips but they also can be loaded individually.. in the case where you fire on or two rounds you might want to replace them without dumping the whole magazine as is the case with the Garrand.
lazs

crabofix · « **Reply #54 on:** September 17, 2003, 03:31:29 PM »

The BAR was used in the Swedish armed forces, using the 6.5 mm round. A beauty to fire and very accurate!

It went under the name "KG m/21" (KG stands for KulspruteGevär) and "KG m/37" after the incorparation of a quick change barrel.

I have yet to get one for my collection, but I have shoot with it a couple of times: it works and handels very well. Though I dont know what diffrence there is between the US BAR and the Swedish BAR, more then maybe the swedish BAR might be a bit lighter (the KG m/21 nearly 9 kilograms, about 20 pounds and the KG m37 nearly 10 kilograms, about 22 pounds.)

Talking about other machineguns, someone mentioned that there is no quickchange barrel to BAR, in the US issue.
BUT theres was no quickchange barrel to the 1919a1 or the Browning M2 either. You can change the barrel, but it is not a fast operation. ( I have shoot enough to bend the barrel in a 1919a1, with blanks and it took about 1000 rounds to accomplish this).

crabofix · « **Reply #55 on:** September 17, 2003, 04:07:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
working the bolt causes more movement than simply pulling the trigger.

I am aware that the magazines for bolt rifles can be loaded with stripper clips but they also can be loaded individually.. in the case where you fire on or two rounds you might want to replace them without dumping the whole magazine as is the case with the Garrand.
lazs

There is something very odd: That the US was one of the first countrys in the world to issue an half automatic weapon as a standard GI issued gun.

For many years, the Military was worried about the ammo consumtion that reapeting guns like the Krag and the 1903 springfield would be able to perform.
So, there was this piece of metal put into the gun, stoping the GI man from using the magasin other then in an emergency. Only then he could take away the metal magasinblock or when ordered to take it away.

I am pretty shure that they had to change the M16, because of the same issue: To high Ammo consumtion.

The differance between an automatic rifle and a bolt acton rifle is: accuracy. It is also a differance in prize of manufacture.
The weight and the reability is also a issue.
(I am pretty sure that the Marines would have killed to get an boltaction rifle instead of the Automatic Reising they where issued in the beginning of the WWII.)

And a question: why are there not that many semiautomatic rifles used by hunters? If the movement of the bolt or another action, causes that much of a disaim?
The movement of the bolt is operated as the gun is on its way down from the recoil. A semiautomatic rifle has also a movement from the recoil, making it to move out of aim after every discharge.

So the second or two, you might loose by moving the bolt, might be won by the fact that you can be sure that it will fire.

Fishu · « **Reply #56 on:** September 17, 2003, 04:23:01 PM »

The change to M16 was pretty much due to the ammo consume vs. usefulness.
There was no use of shooting M16 on auto, when it didn't hit anything.... instead there was more use to shoot it semifire, when it actually hit something.

It must be easy and give a confident feeling to shoot on auto, but it isn't hitting much.

Dune · « **Reply #57 on:** September 17, 2003, 05:39:28 PM »

Crabofix:

The magazine stop you're refering to can be found on British Lee-Enfield SMLE from WWI. One of the purposes behind the magazine stop was to keep soldiers from stopping and firing when they ran out of the trenches. They were to fire one shot and then run over and stab the Hun. Remember what they were taught back then, "Lead is stupid but steel is smart."

Secondly, about hunting rifles being mostly bolt-action. While Browning makes a hunting semi-auto, called the BAR btw, there aren't many in use. There are many reasons for that:
1. The commercial use semi-auto is a relatively new thing. Especially one that was reliable.
2. Most states only allow you to have 3 cartridges in the gun at one time anyway.
3. Bolt actions are usually considered to be more accurate
4. As a part of #3, if the goal is a one-shot kill, why bother with a semi-auto anyway?
5. While it is effective for the smaller calibers, no one wants to shoot a semi-auto .416 Remington Magnum. In fact, I believe that .338 Win Mag is the biggest caliber Browning offers the BAR in. I don't believe that a semi-auto action that would handle the bigger cartridges would be pratical.

crabofix · « **Reply #58 on:** September 17, 2003, 06:43:31 PM »

Dune, I was more refearing to the use of the "trapdoor" springfield for such an extented time, a single loader.

Like a Indian Prince ones said when he was demonstrated the Maxim machinegun- "Very good, but my country would go broke just a couple of hours"
A watercooled machinegun just shoots as long as it has water and ammo. Eventully you have to change the barrel as it is worn out.

Yes, I think that you are right when it comes to the WWI trenchwarefare. Just as the BAR was made to fill another theory of the: "walking fire", a French idea of how to rule the trenches- By men walking and firing from the hip. very good theory, but not a practical one.

By the way, the barret is a semiauto, cal. 50. BMG

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #59 on:** September 17, 2003, 07:38:26 PM »

I have fired both the Mp40 and Tommy Gun - I felt the Tommy gun was better to fire and more controlable on full auto. Though I gotta be honest and say something got into my eye when I was shooting the Mp40 and I wasnt able to aim as well as i would have liked.