Author Topic: How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?  (Read 969 times)

Offline Kweassa

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How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« on: September 17, 2003, 04:23:44 AM »
How did the flaps work on the Hurricane MkIIc?

 A recent discussion in IL2 forums regarding the action of Hurricane flaps gave me the curiosity. The problem seems that some literature states Hurricane flap deployment in two-stages, and I also thought that a UP/DOWN two-stage flap was normal in the Hurricane MkI and MkII.  

 But some people came up with the following article:

Quote

Air Ministry Air Publication 1564B & D, Pilot's notes for Hurricane II with Merlin engines

Ckeck List before take off:
Flaps up (28 degrees down - two divs. on indicator - for shortest take-off run.)

General Flying (iv):
In bad visibility near the ground, flaps should be lowered to about 40 degrees (3 divisions) and the propeller speed control set to give 2,650rpm.

Beam Approach:
Stage: Preliminary Approach, 1,500 ft alt, 120mph IAS (2400 rpm)
Actions: Flaps down 30 degrees.

Stage: At Outer Marker, 600ft alt, 95-100mph IAS (3000rpm)
ActionS: Flaps down 60 degrees.

Stage: Overshoot: Upto 400ft alt, 95-100mph IAS (3000rpm)
Actions: RAuse u/c and retrim, raise flap to 30 degrees and retrim. Raise flaps fully and retrim. Adjust boost and rpm at 1,000 ft.


 So, it is confusing.

 What exactly would a term 'two-stage' mean? Would it mean flaps were provided in only two possible stages? Or does the term 'stage' just depict a larger category of 'general settings', and intermittent settings between them possible..?

 Another article I found about the Hurricane, was on the Hurricane MkI:

Quote

 'Pilots Report - Hurricane P3351' by Keith Skilling

 ...The undercarriage and flap selector is the same lever, an H pattern operated in similar fashion to a car gear lever, and that in itself is a marvel of design or a masterpiece of confusion...

 ...The right hand is then used to release the gear safety latch and select first gear, on the gear/flap selector quadrant. This raises the undercarriage...

 ...First of all select second gear for undercarriage down, and then fourth gear for a few moments, for half flap...

 ...100 mph around base with half flap is comfortable, reducing to 95 with full flap crossing the fence...


 This article seems to portray how the flaps worked, as a manual shifting gear system would work in a car. So from what I imagine:

1) there are four settings in the gear/flap box
2) gear1: raises flaps and landing gears to full shut
3) gear2: drops landing gears full down
4) gear3: initiates flap-down action, which, if left at gear3, the flap will drop down to its full position
5) gear4: momentarily 'locks' the flaps so it stops coming down. switching to gear3 again, will unlock it, and let the flaps down until it's fully down.

 .. is this what I'm imagining correct? Would it work the same way on a Hurricane MkII?

 ..

 If so, then why would they call it a 'two-stage' flap, when effectively it provides multi-stage capabilities?? Is there some disadvantage in this gear/flap single-lever system so that it should be differentiated with a 'multi-stage' system?

 What are the limits of this gear/flap single-lever system, if any? From what it sounds like, wouldn't be actually be more efficient and precise way of controlling the flap degrees?

 ...

 Wow, that's a lot of questions, so I'll number organize them and number them:


1) By what category do we call the Hurricane flap system? Two-stage, or multi-stage?

2) Did Hurri1 and Hurri2 have the same type of flap/gear single lever system?

3) Is my speculation above, about how this system works, correct?

4) What are the advantages and disadvantages of this system, particularly in its combat effectivity?

 ...

Offline flakbait

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How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2003, 06:12:08 AM »
Slightly related, even though Deak doesn't spill the beans as to how they work (gotta wait another month for the flight article)


http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/185674-1.html




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Offline Kweassa

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How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2003, 03:43:30 AM »
punt!

Offline frank3

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How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2003, 11:39:14 AM »
Oh man Kweassa, you ask to difficult questions....

Offline BenDover

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How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2003, 12:15:51 PM »
Simplified version for simple minds - correct me if i'm wrong.

Were the Hurricane's flaps all or nothing, or were they incremental?

Offline HoHun

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Re: How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2003, 12:18:08 PM »
Hi Kweassa,

>'Pilots Report - Hurricane P3351' by Keith Skilling

>...The undercarriage and flap selector is the same lever, an H pattern operated in similar fashion to a car gear lever, and that in itself is a marvel of design or a masterpiece of confusion...

A. P. 1564B & D, Pilot's Notes:

"If difficulty is experienced in operating the undercarriage and flap selector lever it may be overcome by first selecting the opposite to that which is required."

I'm not making this up! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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Re: How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2003, 12:38:57 PM »
Hi again,

Now that I've stopped giggling:

>1) By what category do we call the Hurricane flap system? Two-stage, or multi-stage?

Continous.

It's a standard hydraulically operated system. The pilot controls a valve either extending or retracting them. Setting the control in central position locks them in whatever position they currently are.

The only special thing about it is the dual control lever. It serves nicely to reinforce the impression that British cockpits of the WW2 era were somewhat eccentric :-)

>2) Did Hurri1 and Hurri2 have the same type of flap/gear single lever system?

I'd imagine, but I'm not sure.

>3) Is my speculation above, about how this system works, correct?

In my opinion, the left slot is gear only and the right slot is flaps only. Locking of the flaps in an intermediate position is done by moving the gear/flap handle to central position. It can be left in the "down" position to keep the flaps fully extended, though.

An additional feature of the Hurricane's flap system is the flap position indicator to the right of the pilot's seat. That's what "divs on the indicator" in the paragraph you quoted refers to. Any intermediate position is possible, too, that's why degrees of flaps are mentioned as well.

>4) What are the advantages and disadvantages of this system, particularly in its combat effectivity?

The impact on combat effectiveness probably is marginal. Unlike the Spitfire, the Hurricane can use partial flaps, but as they are of the split flap type that tend to create mostly drag, they don't have much combat value. (A slight lift advantage can be seen from the recommendation to use them for take-off, though.)

The disadvantages probably are that flap operation takes longer than the pneumatically operated Spitfire flaps, and that you lose flap authority when you lose engine power. There's an emergency hand pump, though, which is also required to lower the landing gear if the engine is out.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline flakbait

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How did flaps work on the Hurri2C?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2003, 01:16:00 PM »
A quote for the lazy from the above link



Quote

Way back in the late 30s, someone at Hawker said, "Hey, let's make a single handle for both gear and flaps!" And they did. It moves within an "H" shaped cutout, and works well enough. There is a red safety latch that prevents motion into the "Gear Up" position, and this is turned 90 degrees clockwise just before takeoff. When the handle is pulled left, and then up, it flips the safety to the safe position and retracts the gear (before reaching 103 knots, please). After the gear is up, the handle is placed back in neutral. Doing that pushes past the safety, but doesn't turn it enough to re-arm the thing. It is also necessary to move the lever safety anytime the handle is used for either flaps or gear. The handle is pictured in the "Flaps Up" position.





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