A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door

[Toad]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
proving everyone who opposed the conflict right.

By your timeline, I guess. Five whole months. What'll you be saying if they dig up huge amounts of WMD in two years? Will you come and admit you were totally wrong?

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Someone has to play the 'police' I guess.

No, someone actually has to BE the police. Big difference.

Clearly, you don't have the character or desire for the job. Best to leave it to those who do. Who will do the hard things? Those who can.

You cannot. The UN cannot. Just the way it is.

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Which plans does your government have for helping the several african and asian countries currently in civil wars or oppressive dictatorships?  

Actually, we're waiting to see YOUR government step up and try to do the right thing.

Oh..wait... that's a totally forlorn hope, isn't it?



Well, figure it this way, eventually, we'll get around to them. And they'll bring it upon themselves, just like Hussein did.

The UN will point and talk, bark real loud and growl a bit but do nothing. Finally, the situations in those lands will get so bad, so evil that SOMEONE will have to do something. Even if the UN won't go along.

Think NATO illegally attacking Serbia because the UN, with all of it's internal bickering, made itself powerless to act against an obvious major evil.

Who will do the hard things? Those who can.

And those who can't.. will sit on the sidelines and b*tch and cry like the little nobodies that the have relegated themselves to being.

Have a very nice day!  

[-dead-]

Originally posted by Toad
And just for dead:

Oh, yes, clearly the magnanimous humanitarian, Saddam Hussein would have done far more for his country's infrastructure and health services if only it wasn't for the evil US and it's handmaiden, the UN.

Jeez... I've been off these boards a while and haven't missed it because of this kind of... well... less than intelligent commentary.

Think I'll take another break as it doesn't seem like much has changed.

Saddam Stole Billions From U.N.


And let's not forget the oil smuggling. The U.S. GAO Office estimated in 2002 that Iraq dleared 4.3 billion from oil smuggling since 1997. How? Where? 75,000 to 110,000 barrels of oil per day went through Jordan, 180,000 to 250,000 per day went through Syria, and went 40,000 to 80,000 barrels per day through Turkey.

Clearly, Saddam was down to his last Dinar and could not help his people.



Whale, Hale Yah! The mean old UN kept him from building hospitals!

Saddam's Palaces



All caused by US/UN sanctions. Thanks for clearing that up, dead.

He couldn't spend on infrastructure and hospitals because of the evil US/UN sanctions.

Thank Allah the sanctions didn't prevent him from amassing a personal fortune estimated at greater than $10 billion. And it didn't keep him from trying to build the world's biggest mosque. Or 78 presidential palaces.

Whew! Those Iraqis were lucky in that, I guess.

Well what did they expect? That Hussein would suddenly look out for his people?!? Sorry that dog won't run. He was a dreadful dictator - and last I checked dreadful dictators are not renowned for their charity work. I think it's a tradition, or old charter or something.
So sanctions (as you so helpfully point out) did not affect Hussein at all. Not one bit. They only affected innocent civilians. And they stuffed Iraq's infrastructure. So what's your point? Sanctions would only work if Hussein was a nice guy?!? That we made all those people suffer and die to make Hussein feel bad - even though pretty much by definition that was the last thing that was going to happen?

[Siaf__csf]

"By your timeline, I guess. Five whole months. What'll you be saying if they dig up huge amounts of WMD in two years? Will you come and admit you were totally wrong?"

Well if that happens, and I'm not saying it can't happen, I promise I will apologize. Why shouldn't I?

With all else, Toad, I think you're forgetting all the years your country was supporting Saddam because it was convenient at the time. Or the years your government was supporting the afghan extremists terror attempts against the russian forces, again because it was convenient for you. Islamic radicals were ok while cutting throats as it was your ideological enemy suffering then.

Saddam grew powerful partly because of your support. Same happened with afghan rebels. The problem with playing in the world sanbox is that historically looking, all those events have turned against you. You're fixing up your own mess down there.

Toad, you're a smart guy that I can tell. You're not smart enough, though, to convince me that your hands are not stained. How was it, btw, to take part in the biggest pre-iraq fiasco your country created? It sure made cool movies afterwards.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
With all else, Toad, I think you're forgetting all the years your country was supporting Saddam because it was convenient at the time. Or the years your government was supporting the afghan extremists terror attempts against the russian forces, again because it was convenient for you. Islamic radicals were ok while cutting throats as it was your ideological enemy suffering then.

Time changes situations and circumstances. It's very convenient for you to ignore that. I'm giving up trying to justify anything we do to outsiders, most have already determined to ignore reason.

[boxboy28]

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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
And you continue to pay for it. Hey it's your lives, your money. It really doesn't bother me.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I think it does bother you and greatly. Otherwise why would you continually ***** about it?

Ill bet he is  a pissed off Frenchie who is losing money because he was doing business with the BATTH party and Hussain!:mad:  Illegaly

[GtoRA2]

So by your reasoning Siaf__csf we should still be pissed of at the Germans and Japanese cause they did some bad things in the past right?

[Siaf__csf]

Gtora well d'uh I think you were pretty pissed at them during WW2 as with the rest of the planet. The agressive policies of the countries were a valid reason for self defense. You didn't attack Japan or Germany because 'Hitler was a bad boy oppressing the jews'

In fact, if he wouldn't have been so expansive his actions would have continued unbothered. Believe it.

The US, anyway, wasn't the effecting force in creating the mess back then as it has been in the last two major conflicts. It's kinda hypocrite to rant about human rights etc. only a couple years after funding and arming the oppressor.

Boxboy: ROFL! Are you drunk? For the last time, I'm not french. I know you guys love to hate the french. I'm not. Deal with it.

I love you guys.. You make life richer.

[GtoRA2]

Saif
 You missed the point, Germany and Japan did horific things durring WW2. Yet now we do not hold it agaist them.

The united states did bad things in the past, we support Saddam, it was a pretty long time ago.

Yet you seem to be holding it agaist us still.

[Toad]

Originally posted by -dead-
... yeah right - that would have nothing to do with the US led UN sanctions, ...

... yeah, that wouldn't have anything to do with sanctions either of course. Just because Iraq was only allowed money...
 

Originally posted by -dead-
So sanctions (as you so helpfully point out) did not affect Hussein at all. Not one bit.  

LOL!

Talk about trying to have it both ways, eh dead?

You just told us all it was the SANCTIONS that ruined Iraq's infrastructure and impoverished the Iraq health system...poor Saddam just didn't have the cash to build the state of the art infrastructure and hospitals he really, really, REALLY wanted to build instead of palaces and Grand Mosques and personal fortunes.



 Jeez, this is TOO GOOD!

[straffo]

Toad I think he was speaking of Saddam himself , not Iraq

[Siaf__csf]

GTora your supporting Saddam was _not_ very long time ago. It was in recent past. You were aiding him. Kinda like the third reich was aiding it's citizens in building gas chambers and ghetto's. Saddam knowingly committed crimes against humanity while he was on your payroll. There's the difference. Therefore you can not point your finger at him, because that finger is stained.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Well if that happens, and I'm not saying it can't happen, I promise I will apologize. Why shouldn't I?

[/b]

Great! Just a thought for you then:

Be careful of the words you say, keep them soft and sweet;

You never know from day to day which ones you'll have to eat

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
you're forgetting all the years your country was supporting Saddam... supporting the afghan extremists terror attempts against the russian forces,...

Realpolitik, Siaf.

Imagine this: We were once actual ALLIES with and gave military arms to that true butcher, Stalin! Can you imagine!!!!!

Yes, it's TRUE!!!!!

Hey, did you know we were once ENEMIES with Japan? Yes, it's TRUE!!!!!

As Iron pointed out, times change. So do alliances, allies and erstwhile friends.

Man, one would think with all those 1300 year old cathedrals, some of yas would have noticed this.

Oh, and btw.. if we did SOLELY create the mess in Iraq (a very dubious hypothesis) at least we cleaned it up.

And I prefer that WE finish what WE started without asking the UN to help. Responsibility, accountability.


 

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
How was it, btw, to take part in the biggest pre-iraq fiasco your country created?

I was extremely proud to be a tiny part of an attempt to prevent communism from being imposed on a people by force of arms. Although the attempt failed, it does not diminish the goal in my eyes.

And a few thoughts for you chum:

Post-Tet, the military situation was well in hand. The VC had essentially been wiped out. They had their tulips handed to them on a plate, thinly sliced with a tart mayonnaise/horseradish sauce. Huge strides were made under General Abrams in stabilizing the country. It was the lack of balls on the part of US politicians that allowed regular NV armed forces to build up in the South. Further it was the determination to "get out" at all costs that led to eventual NV victory. Had the same determination that decimated the VC during TET been applied to killing the NV regulars wherever we found them the story would have been quite different.

Call it a fiasco if you like. If it was, it was a fiasco by the politicians, not the military. Cripes ammighty.. the ROE for the airwar alone were ludicrous.

But take all the cheap shots you like. It's what you do best.

The goal was honorable; I'm proud I was in uniform.

And now, bold Siaf, just what country's citizenship do you claim? Or do you not have the gonads to say it and be proud of it?

[GtoRA2]

LOL.

4 years is a long time in my book or 8 depending on the president.  You are blaming the US and the present administration for the errors of past presidents.

[muckmaw]

It takes alot of guts to talk smack about someone's country when you won't even mention where your from, eh Siaf?

I simply do not understand this sudden hatred for America.

Is it simply envy? Do foreign countries simply hate us because they are no longer a world power, or never were?

You do realize, we did the WORLD a favor here. Whether you like our methods or not, we have brought more stability to this region than there ever was. We freed an opressed people. But most important of all, if we took a passive role, how long do you think it would have been before SH DID develop WMD's if he did not do so already? And how long before they DID find their way into the hands of an extremist group?

No country in this world is safe from terrorism. None.

There may have been no connectipon between SH and 9/11 but bet me he would not give a weapon to any terrorist group if the price was right.  

Disagre with our mthods all you want, but it all comes down to the fact that the world envies our ability to do what they can only debate at a sidewalk cafe.

Toad could probably say this better, but I think you get my point.

[Siaf__csf]

"Realpolitik, Siaf.

Imagine this: We were once actual ALLIES with and gave military arms to that true butcher, Stalin! Can you imagine!!!!!

Yes, it's TRUE!!!!! "

Which is a fact I still despise today. Historical error.

Muckmaw where did I ever say I hated america? I disagree with your foreign policies and I love to argue with people who blindly support the agressive attitude, thats all. I have nothing against americans or the american way of life, as I repeatedly have tried to explain to many of you.

For some reason you folks always turn criticism to being hatred - there's a difference you know. I have long time friends in the US - trust me, I don't want anything bad to happen to them or you.

You say you did the WORLD a favour. How so? The WMD is still missing somewhere. How was he a threat? I'm sure a better guess would be you went there to do your oil reserves a favour.

I have no need to bring my true nationality in the discussion since I live in a country that has always minded its own matters and relying on good relationships and neutrality. We didn't ask or take anything from other countries or force ourselves over others.

It's called peaceful living.