Author Topic: A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door  (Read 4341 times)

Offline Wanker

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I thought I would start a discussion on Iraq, in the hopes that only those who can step back and look at it unemotionally and rationally would reply.

Please, keep it civil.


I did, and still do, support the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq and overthrow it's government. There were at least four good reasons to overthrow Saddam Hussein and his cronies(in no particular order):

1. Refusal to comply with the United Nations

2. The possibility of the existence of WMD, and the chance they would find their way into the hands of terrorists who could then use them against citizens of any country, not just America.

3. Saddam's regime guaranteed an unstable middle east.

4. Saddam's oppression of the Iraq people's freedom and liberty.

That being said, I think the Bush administration made a huge faux pas by not being totally honest with the American public about the real reason we went in there. Personally, I would've have preferred if Bush had listed the four reasons above in public, and made it clear that there wasn't any one overriding reason.

By choosing to focus only on the WMD, the current administration set themselves up for failure, and consquently, sharp criticism.

I don't have a problem per se with the Bush administration going it alone vis-a-vis Iraq without the Unites Nations, because history has taught us(Rhineland 1936, Munich 1938) that such organizations(in this case the League of Nations) can become paralyzed when faced with a difficult decision that's needed for the good of the world. However, now that we have gone ahead and went it alone, it is cheeky of the U.S. to start asking for assistance from the UN now that the honeymoon with the Iraqi citizens had apparently ended.

In my opinion, we should finish what we started. If the UN comes to us and wants to help, then we should accept. But we should be prepared to see things through alone if we must, because we started it alone.

From a strictly human viewpoint, I am saddended that so many American servicemen and Iraqi people have been killed, especially after the war has been declared over. We should't forget the sacrifice the soldiers are making, every day. Neither should we forget or ignore the culture of the Iraqi people. We need to continue to show them respect, and to act like liberators, not conquerors.

It is unfortunate that some people on this BBS,  who pretend to be freedom loving American patriots, continue to label anyone who questions the actions and motives of the Bush administration, as unpatriotic traitors.  These so-called patriots must have forgotten all about the 1st amendment to the U.S. constitution.

The right to question, criticize and scrutinize the government's policies and actions is one of the fundamental rights that this country was founded on. Some of us have seem to forgotten this.

The road ahead in Iraq is sure to be long, full of danger and uncertainty for all involved. My hope is that Iraq can rejoin the world as a peaceful, democratic nation with as few casualties as possible, as soon as possible.

Can't wait to see our troops headed back to their families.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 09:48:13 AM by Wanker »

Offline Curval

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2003, 09:45:21 AM »
I'm more concerned with a current battle going on in the South Pacific.  The Japanese have been very quiet.

;)
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Wanker

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2003, 10:04:30 AM »
Sorry Curv, will get to you this weekend.

Offline ra

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2003, 10:08:18 AM »
Quote
Personally, I would've have preferred if Bush had listed the four reasons above in public, and made it clear that there wasn't any one overriding reason.

That's exactly what he did.  The WMD parts of any speeches he gave got all the attention.

Offline Dowding

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2003, 10:46:15 AM »
Quote
That's exactly what he did. The WMD parts of any speeches he gave got all the attention.


Aaah... that would be why he sent Powell to the UN claiming WMD and why 1441 was pushed for instead of a resolution calling Saddam 'A naughty man who does evil things'. Strange how there was no request in 1441 for Saddam to start being a nice guy to his own people...

WMD was numero uno on the agenda and it is dishonest to claim otherwise. No-one would have bought a war based on the fact that Saddam wasn't a nice chap - there are too many of his type to even begin down that road. Yet now that things are a little dodgy post-war and WMD is not as forth-coming as Bush et al would hope, the whole boat changes direction and sets a course with a humanitarian tack. Which is a pretty desperate act, if you ask me. The behaviour of the West towards tin-pot middle Eastern states has been less than exemplary in the past. It's as transparent as fine crystal.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 10:53:12 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline muckmaw

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2003, 11:06:48 AM »
So if the invasion of Iraq was sold to the US as a measure to enforce Reslolution 1441, why is GWB being persecuted as a liar?

Was'nt resolution 1441 composed by and ratified by the UN?

Simply put, if GWB lied or was duped into believing WMDs existed, the UN lied or was duped as well.

Is this logic flawed?:confused:

Offline Dowding

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2003, 11:10:19 AM »
The emphasis was on WMD and disarmament. It pervaded all of the Coalition's diplomatic overtures and sabre-rattling before things went 'Live'. When Blair persuaded Bush to go the UN route to tackle Iraq, tell me, what was the angle pursued?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline muckmaw

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2003, 11:17:44 AM »
Your missing my point Dowding.

Of course, the main thrust of the argument to go to war was to enforce 1441 and to find and destroy WMDs.

This is also the most persuasive argument for war because it hits close to home. Here, according to the pitch, is a real, viable threat to our safety. (Sure, there are perks to doing this but the main reason for war is to protect ourselves).

My question is who why did the UN ratify 1441 if there was not an overwhelming belief that WMDs existed in Iraq?

Thats the focal point to me. If 1441 was ratified by the UN, and GWB and the US was merely enforcing a UN resolution, would'nt it stand to reason that Both the UN and GWB were wither duped or duplicitous?

Offline Modas

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Re: A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2003, 11:20:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by banana


I did, and still do, support the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq and overthrow it's government.

 



As I am at work, and have customers coming in, I don't have a lot of time to respond to this overlly logically.  If I rabble or don't make any sense, please forgive me ;).  I'll just go sit in the corner and finish my popcorn left over from the double dare ya post in the other forum :D

Your statement about supporting the overthrow of another country's government bothers me.  I read all of your statements and totally agree that Sadam was a raving lunatic.  I agree with all of your statements.

However, the U.S does not have the right to overthrow governments.  Whats to stop us from going into other countries?IMO, the right to overthrow a countries government belongs strictly to the people living in said country.  People appreciate things more when they have to earn it versus having it given to them.

Can the U.S help the revolt once it has been started?  Hell yes, just like France helped us when we revolted against England.

The reasons for going into Iraq as stated by Bush were: WMD, 9/11 connection; Al-Queda; Free the people of Irad from a lunatic.

Well, the first three reasons are circumstantial at best at this point.  Freeing the people?  Well that's nice, but if we do it for them, why not everyone else, cuz there are a lot of other countries out there just a oppressed by thier leaders as Iraq.  Are we gonna free them?  If not, why?

If later on, we find WMD, concrete proof of 9/11 connection, etc, great, it will help Bush dig himself out of the hole I think he is in.  It will also help more clearly justify us going in there.  But... until then, using the reason of "freeing the people of Iraq" is not a valid on IMO.

 That is all....

Oh, one more thing, I DO support the troops over there.  They go where they are told to, and do a hell of a job, irregardless of the reason or politics. to them.

Offline muckmaw

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2003, 11:25:59 AM »
To look at it another way, is it possible there was no second gulf war?

Gulf War 2 is really just a continuation of Gulf War I, as Gulf War I was ended by the 1991 adoption of Resolution 687, which granted Iraq a Cease Fire if as long as it compied with Resolution 687.

I could be wrong, but from what I'm reading, technically speaking, Gulf War II was brought about by the violation of the cease fire by Iraq  adopted in 687, so in reality, we were simply finishing up the liberation of Kuwait.:D

Offline Monk

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2003, 11:34:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
To look at it another way, is it possible there was no second gulf war?

Gulf War 2 is really just a continuation of Gulf War I, as Gulf War I was ended by the 1991 adoption of Resolution 687, which granted Iraq a Cease Fire if as long as it compied with Resolution 687.

I could be wrong, but from what I'm reading, technically speaking, Gulf War II was brought about by the violation of the cease fire by Iraq  adopted in 687, so in reality, we were simply finishing up the liberation of Kuwait.:D


Pretty much the way I see it.

Offline Siaf__csf

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2003, 11:37:19 AM »
Someone said before the attack that going to Iraq would prove to be a historical error.

His words are becoming reality, unfortunately.

Offline popeye

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2003, 11:38:47 AM »
"Indeed, the United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While  the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate  justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of  Saddam Hussein."

REBUILDING AMERICA’S DEFENSES
Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century

A Report of The Project for the New American Century
September 2000
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

Offline muckmaw

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2003, 11:44:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Someone said before the attack that going to Iraq would prove to be a historical error.

His words are becoming reality, unfortunately.


I would tend to believe that the people of Iraq, by in large, would disagree with this statement.

How is Paris this time of year, anyway?

Offline Siaf__csf

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A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2003, 11:46:32 AM »
"Oh, one more thing, I DO support the troops over there. They go where they are told to, and do a hell of a job, irregardless of the reason or politics. to them."

Well, hell, I doubt anyone here DOESNT support them. They're only doing their jobs out there. Big boss points and you move.

On a personal level, any casualty is one too many be it Iraqi or American. Often when I see news from there I can't help but think the grief and sorrow of the families of the young men and women dying out there. Damn shame.

Why can't people just be civil?