Author Topic: Spit and 190 diving (Read 1612 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2003, 02:00:47 PM »

AH Bf109G6 often has some conisedarble trouble diving away from even our SpitIX...

Angus · « **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2003, 05:11:49 PM »

Utterly informative chart there!
Anyway, does anyone have a link or more information about the diving trials at Farnborough (?) where the Spit reached the highest mach number of all prop planes? Would love to know more about that.

Neil Stirling1 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 24, 2003, 03:18:19 AM »

HoHun, I have the entire report minus 1 page on elevator forces.
I would be very interested to see your .89 Mach 109G dive report.
Angus the report is not availabe on line.

Neil.

Tumor · « **Reply #18 on:** September 24, 2003, 03:57:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I sure do love the abundance of good science going on in this thread.

-- Todd/Leviathn

So provide some.

HoHun · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2003, 03:15:44 PM »

Hi Neil,

>I would be very interested to see your .89 Mach 109G dive report.

Wait - I meant Mach 0.79! A modified Me 109G even went to Mach 0.80, but that's it for the Messerschmitt.

Sorry, the Spitfire's Mach 0.89 isn't just impressive but outright incredible :-)

(I actually believe it, but it took a while until I realized how much faster than the rest of the bunch Mach 0.89 actually is.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Angus · « **Reply #20 on:** September 26, 2003, 04:20:43 AM »

It was a PR Spitfire wasn't it?

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #21 on:** September 26, 2003, 08:51:26 AM »

After the niki chased down my jug in a dead dive, i disqualified myself from any intelligent dive conversation:(

MiloMorai · « **Reply #22 on:** September 26, 2003, 09:28:20 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
It was a PR Spitfire wasn't it?

Yes a Mk XI with the enlarged oil tank in the nose. This was one way to tell a MkIX from a Mk XI, if the cannons could not be seen.

Don · « **Reply #23 on:** September 29, 2003, 12:01:17 PM »

>>Same thing with the Jug, it could outdive about every other plane in the ETO, not the case in AH IMO.<<

Wilbus:
I agree 100% from first hand experience. Further, there are many inconsistencies in the a/c modeled in AH as compared to a/c characteristics in reality.

Don · « **Reply #24 on:** September 29, 2003, 12:04:25 PM »

>>Manoeuvrability: The FW 190 is more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire IX except in turning circles.
The superior rate of roll of the FW 190 enabled it to avoid the Spitfire IX by turning over into a diving turn in the opposite direction.
The initial acceleration of the FW 190 is better than that of the Spitfire IX under all conditions of flight, except in level flight at altitudes where the Spitfire has a speed advantage. <<

LOL! And this is simply NOT the case in the MA at all.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 29, 2003, 12:18:45 PM »

Quoting from Alfred Price's book "The Spitfire Story"

"Because the Spitfire had the highest limiting Mach number of any aircraft during the mid-war period, and airframes of the reconnaissance versions were cleaner then those of the fighters, a Mark XI was chosen for a series of high speed diving trials conducted at Farnborough in the Spring of 1944 to explore handling as aircraft dived at speeds close to the sound barrier.

During one of these dives, in EN409, on April 27, 1944, Squadron Leader Marty Martindale reached a true airspeed of 606 MPH and .89 Mach."

He started his dive at 40,400 feet and 340MPH before bunting over into a 45 degree dive.

I've always understood that the thinner wing of the Spit was a big contributer to this speed as well.

Dan/Slack

HoHun · « **Reply #26 on:** September 29, 2003, 02:27:11 PM »

Hi Wilbus,

>Same thing with the Jug, it could outdive about every other plane in the ETO, not the case in AH IMO.

First, let me point out that I don't fly Aces High :-)

With regard to diving, there are many factors involved, some beneficial for the P-47, others not.

The historical P-47 did neither have great initial acceleration from low speed nor a high limiting Mach number. Its strength lay in the medium speed region - optimally, the P-47 pilot would have to enter the dive steeply, accelerating quickly before pulling out smoothly to run away with his superior level speed. The usual stuff: Maximize your advantages etc.

Diving for too long would take the P-47 into compressibility, where most contemporary fighter aircraft were superior, even if they might be unable to catch up in the mid-phase of the dive.

If Aces High models it like that, I'd say it's pretty accurate :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

SlapShot · « **Reply #27 on:** September 29, 2003, 02:40:04 PM »

Its all relative to the "E" states of the planes at hand when the encounter takes place.

I fly the Spit V alot and if a 190 has an equal E state to mine or even slightly lower that mine, they easily walk away from me in a dive or otherwise. If they are out of gun range, they have nothing to fear.

Any 190 that I have caught, in a dive or otherwise, and killed, has been caught with his "E" pants down around his ankles, while I have a pocket full of "E". Simple as that ... no one, or chart to blame, but themselves.

All these discussion of ... "how the hell did x plane catch my y plane". Well from my experience, in any encounter that I have, I can only guesstimate my opponents "E" state, and if I have guessed wrong ... then watermelon happens.

Everybody is so quick to run to the charts to explain their failure to guess the "E" state of their opponent.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #28 on:** September 29, 2003, 02:51:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
Its all relative to the "E" states of the planes at hand when the encounter takes place.

Not at all. Go to DA with a second pilot, place both of you on the runaway of the NW field, heading N. Roll both planes at the same time and start the dive to the sea at the same time once the runaway ends. This way you can test relative diving between planes starting at same alt and more or less same speed (just after take off).

SlapShot · « **Reply #29 on:** September 29, 2003, 02:58:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Not at all. Go to DA with a second pilot, place both of you on the runaway of the NW field, heading N. Roll both planes at the same time and start the dive to the sea at the same time once the runaway ends. This way you can test relative diving between planes starting at same alt and more or less same speed (just after take off).

I presume that you have already done this ? If so, what were your findings ?