An alternative to Ishmael

[jmccaul]

In the thread how to conquer the flight sim market ishmael suggested the OAE, an rpg type career for a pilot based on a kill streak. The problem with this idea it based the whole game around it with huge advantages to those who did well the problem with this is those who don't want to play the game this way are alienated and also one death makes you start again from the bottom, a major frustration.
Here i propose a more transparent alternative so people can choose to play along or not.
It would be a simple status system representing the skill of the pilot using statistics.
The pilots status would not be wiped out by one death instead it could be based on the K/D ratio or points sytem such as a
kill = 1 point
death = -0.75 points
collision = -0.25 points
With this system the truly superior pilots would gain a status that would reflect that over a period of time when things like unfortunate deaths will balance out.
The reward for reaching a higher status would not be a physical advantage in the game but a psycological one.
    The perfect way to show this higher status would be a markings on a plane like flashes on the wings or a different colour nose, something generic which could be superimposed on all planes. These markings would only become clear at shorter distances but to prevent any active hunting of people and also mabye the higher the rank players markings would be more noticable for instance the highest ranking may be indicated by a red tail plane where as the lowest rank would be some flashes on a wing. Imagine going into a co-energy merge and as your opponent closes on you you notice the infamous red tail which perhaps only a handful of people in the game have achieved would that not put the fear of god into you.
   This system would obviously would have to be tested and tweaked so the correct number of people occupied each status and a new status was not too easy or difficult to achieve.
   Also this system could be used to encourage team play such as if an enemy field was captured everyone in that country recieves 1 point or a kill for their K/D ratio, obviously the more important the target the greter the reward. Also i believe bombers should not be peanalised when they are shot down so people won't lose fighter points or if you really wanted to encourage people into buffs you could double points gained when capturing enemy field when in a buff so peole who fly buffs will be in a win/win situation as far as there status is concerned.
   I think the main thrust of this idea is that you can concentrate all your resources on achieving a higher status but if you don't want to there is no actual penalty for not playing the game as the system wants you to apart from a few marks on a plane.  
P.S.   I edited this message because when writing K/D ratio i used : then D and this happened      

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 09-19-1999).]

[Downtown]

I have been thinking that HTC could do an Aces Areana, or something like that.

An RPS Arena.

In order to get into the arena your K/D would have to be say .45 or better (This is probably two high) and say 2 collisions in 50 sorties?

In this arena you put a very intensce damage model, engine management system, all the HARD CORE Simmer Tweaks.

Maybe a disclaimer.

Here's where we seperate the Cream from the Curd.

Maybe it would only be available on Saturdays?

I don't know, flush it out.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

[chester]

why ,i ask, are stats compiled after you get killed? whats wrong with your stats going to zero when killed? IMO the lack of any type of penilty for death is a great impedement to the whole thought of air combat.how about a givin number of sorties representing a tour of duty.see if you can complete a tour and live.kill to death numbers seem kinda lame.kinda makes death meaningless.after all isnt this about combat?I think in the real world DEATH slows your scoring way down.

[jmccaul]

I think it is just that people die too often. As far as the idea i proposed you could be the best pilot in the game but as soon as you get killed you get the same markings as a first timer. The markings are there so if you are really good people see and fear and respect you. Going to the bottom fairly regularly would be intensly frustrating especially for those who would like some form of status but do not want to have to be super careful getting there. When you die in this system there is a consequence die too often and lose rank. So there is a bit extra incentive to live for those who care but the game is not based around staying alive so people can still play the game how they like and ignore their status with no ill effects.
    Basically this is just a extra touch which could be superimposed on top of the game which may or may not improve gameplay we'll probably never know, unless of course it is implemented in this or any other sim.
     

[SMERSH]

I agree with the sentiment that online deaths in flight sims are too cheap, and there should be some form of role play so a character can be developed and this character can be killed.

However here's an idea: The online character doesn't get killed from just one death. Instead the character only dies if he gets shot down more than "x" times in one day (or one week etc). So for example if a character gets shot down more than 3 times in one day, he actually dies.

But this character could get extra "lives" if he gets a certain number of kills. So for example if he shoots down 6 enemy a/c in a day, he gets 1 or 2 extra "lives" that he can use in that week.

This will encourage players to get more kills in order to get extra "freebie" lives, while at the same time concerned about not loosing too many a/c in the process so they don't permanently lose the character they've built up  

[chester]

all good ideas. what ever .if there is no penilty for death in a combat sim what then is it all about?????????????

[Downtown]

With the $29.95 offer, I will definetly take the time to climb out away from the action.

I will fly much smarter.

With WB at $2.00 an hour there is a hurry to get into the fray.

AH don't have that limitation.

SO I say make DEATHS COSTLY!!!!!!

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG


[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 09-20-1999).]

[jmccaul]

My idea is the greatest idea in the world ever better than any idea anyone's in the world that anyone's ever thought of.
Now I've graced this board with my idea (and more importantly my general aura of greatness and supreme genius) all that you philistines need to do, yes I am talking to you the people who make these games and have had years of experience playing and making them, all you need to do is implement it to have the greatest game ever.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S JUST A SCORING SYSTEM !!!!!
THE FLIGHT MODEL ISN'T NEARLY AS IMPORTANT, DO THIS NOW !!!!!
SO WHAT IF I HAVE NEVER PLAYED A TRULY ONLINE SIM THERE BORING !!!!

Maybe that will get some replies    

P.S. chester agreed there should be penalty for death but just not so severe i find it would be frustrating as a fair proportion of people die more often than they kill.    

[ISHMAEL]

A reply to jimccaul:

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I think the main thrust of this idea is that you can concentrate all your resources on achieving a higher status but if you don't want to there is no actual penalty for not playing the game as the system wants you to apart from a few marks on a plane.
-----------

First of all, I'm glad to see some proposals being put forward on this issue. it shows that many of us do recognize that Online Flight Sims are in fact *broken* in a very basic way that destorys any hope that combat tactics used in flight will bear any resemblance to real world combat.

The problem with your proposal (to offer a psycological reward only to those pilots who live long) is that it gives an unfair advantage to those pilots who do not care about survival.

How?

First of all, more points will be scored by the pilot who plays the odds and simply attacks when he has a better than even chance of success. The cautious pilot will only risk his life when the odds against him have been minimized or mission priorities call for heroics. This means, he scores fewer kills in the long run.

More importantly, trying to survive in an environment filled with suicidal lunatics is near impossible. Just ask the crews of some of the american battle ships that fell victim to the Japanese kamikazees!

When all combatants are seeking survival - or when all combatants are offered the same rewards as a consequence of survival - the odds improve (or equalize) for each of them individually.

If you face a *berzerer* opponent, the game becomes very simple: kill or be killed. When your opponent shares the goal of survival, mutual disengagement, or singular retreat, becomes possible.

Thus, it is important that the rewards of survival be many and varied, so as to appeal the the broad mass of players. Otherwise, some players will not seek survival and thus will gain an advantage over their more cautious opponents.

What we are doing here is discussing two ideas. One is the THEORY of game design, the other is the nuts and bolts of a proposed system.

My response is theoretical. Any game system that hopes to achieve the goal of encouraging caution in pilots will need to be air, equitable, and broad ranging in its effects.

However, the AOE has other advantages which I have discussed elsewhere, not the least of which is increasing the level of immersion for the players.

ISHMAEL

[ISHMAEL]

how about a givin number of sorties representing a tour of duty.see if you can complete a tour and live.
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This is in fact my ideal system. Provide players with a fianl goal, the achievment of which results in a highly desirable final reward.

Options might include:

Survive X number of hours in the combat arena and your alter ego is retired. However your next alter ego starts at the second experience level (rather than the first).

Survive X number of hours in the combat arena AND score a minimum of five kills. Your alter ego is retired and placed in the "Hall of Aces." Your next alter ego starts the game at the third experience level.

Survive X number of hours in the combat arena AND score a minumum of 10 kills. You get three months of time at half price!

These are just options.

A little imagination and it's easy to think of more "final rewards" that might be offered. Aces High might consider making arrangments with software or hardware manufacturers to provide prizes to players with surviving/high-scoring alter egos. Many companies will participate simply for the promotional returns with prizes made available without cost to Aces High.

ISHMAEL

[ISHMAEL]

A reply to smersh:

-----------
he online character doesn't get killed from just one death. Instead the character only
dies if he gets shot down more than "x" times in one day (or one week etc). So for example if a character gets shot down more than 3 times in one day, he actually dies.
-----------

Again...I am happy to see that we are thinking about alternative solutions to the problem of "death without consequence," however there is a difficulty with this proposal.

If pilots are afforded "free lives," there is little to disuade them from using the "free life" in a kamikazee attack against an important target. If the "important target" happens to be an opponent who happens to be on his last life....well, that hardly seems fair to me.

Kamikazee attacks should never come cheap. They may be a tactical option but using that option should be very costly. Historically, trained pilots have higher value than their aircraft.

In my view, a WW2 simulation already provides players with "multiple deaths." It's called a parachute (I assume these ARE modeled in Aces High???).

A pilot who is shot down over friendly territory (assuming he is not killed by an enemy bullet) may parachute to saftey. A pilot who parachutes remains alive and may fly again.

Pilots who parachute over enemy territory are captured and may never fly again.

This actually recreates the historical advantages of fighting over home turf (ie. "The Battle of Britain") where experienced pilots can be retreaved and put back behind the stick if they fall on the homeland. Those that fall in occupied territory are lost for the duration.

ISHMAEL

[Herc]

I really like the original idea in this thread except for the field capture bonus for everyone.  I honestly believe that people will strive for the status symbols (markings on the planes).  The beginners are not punished in anyway by getting inferior planes.  It's not a forced system.  It's like the Jg26 with the yellow noses.  I'm sure many an allied pilot got nervous when the yellow nosed German fighters flashed by.  I thinks it's a great and simple concept that would work although I don't know how feasible it would be from the programming side and I suppose protection must be built in to prevent people from hacking the art files to get the status markings.

Herc

[jmccaul]

 Thanks herc i thought everyone hated the idea  

I am afraid this topic will turn into me vs Ishmael but my idea is just a little touch of polish

Having said this is turning into me vs Ish I am going to do along post now explaining the differences in mine an ish's idea's but if as it turned out Ish's idea worked brilliantly there is no reason why the 2 couldn't co-exsist  

[jmccaul]

   I will start with an apology for entitling this thread "an alternative to ishmael" as the idea I stated is quite different to ishmael's apart from when you boil it down to its basics they are both just scoring systems with rewards to encourage a certain type of behaviour. Ishmael believes a game should be based around his system and that the system will revolutionise online gaming (his words not mine) I just believe that this is a case of a the tail leading the dog. The system is given such paramount importance that if you don't like the type of game it creates (which in my opinion would be low on combat high on frustration) you have no other options the game is not for you and you will not pay to play which does not make economic sense. Ishmael's system also works on the one death and back to the start scenario. My proposal on the other hand is just a little suggestion which when people play the game they might see it and think cool touch (although I will say lots of cool touches can be what sways a customer). It will basically will take a kind of kill/death ratio combined with extra points for when your country hits a strategic target(to encourage teamwork and use of stratergy) and reward you with neat little markings on your plane so when you're dogfighting some one up close and notice they are one the top pilots in the game you will get a little surge of adrenaline. As the system is K/D any freak deaths etc will be balanced out and also gives a fair indication of the best pilots in the game. At the same time if you are not very good or don't like the system you can choose to ignore it and it will not hinder the way you want to play the game.

P.S. Hitech, any possibility of this sort of thing being implemented or is technically difficult or do you just plain not like the idea?

I will now try to answer your specific criticism's and incorrect assumptions

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Quote  :
          First of all, I'm glad to see some proposals being put forward on this issue. it shows that many of us do recognise that Online Flight Sims are in fact *broken* in a very basic way that destroys any hope that combat tactics used in flight will bear any resemblance to real world combat.
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    Online sims are not broken people play them the way they want to play them. Both are systems just try to point people to play the sim more like we would like to see it played although yours rams it down peoples throats. Have you seen the amount of pages dedicated to ACM theory in warbirds et al I believe people fly in combat in historically correct ways what you are talking about is people being to eager to fight against the odds and massive furballs. You are right in some respects these activities were not particularly prevalent but still occurred quite regularly, if you read Roald Dahl's autobiography "going solo" (yes the children's author) he describes how when in a hurri squadron in Greece he describes how all planes were sent out individually to engage enemy which outnumbered them 10 to 1. Also what do you think happened when two squadrons met they did not break off in mutual agreement they furballed. The game should not be centred on these sorts of things but they should both occur and in your system people wouldn't risk it.

   You also go on to say how pilots who don't care are rewarded because other pilots are more careful and don't kill as much. First I thought  you wanted pilots to be more careful and second the careful pilots die less so do not have the penalty of lots of deaths. Whatever way you look at it the best pilots will kill more and die less and hopefully co-ordinate inexperienced players in order to gain points through teamwork.