Author Topic: Which would you rather fly if your life depended.. (Read 3527 times)

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #75 on:** September 29, 2003, 06:33:01 AM »

And still they lost 2 planes for 1 lightning.
strange.

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #76 on:** September 29, 2003, 09:21:53 AM »

Tally at this point. (Prolly the final tally is)

p-47 13
p51 5.5
spits 4.5
p38 4
tempest 3.5
mossie 1
TA152 1
262 1
D9 1

Tnx for yuor vote

frank3 · « **Reply #77 on:** September 29, 2003, 09:22:14 AM »

Depends on luck, pilot, conditions

RRAM · « **Reply #78 on:** September 29, 2003, 09:54:56 AM »

gimme one of the souped-up Fw190D9s in JV44. I'll take it over any allied plane, anytime.

And the Ta152H would be my 2nd take. F4U4 the third.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #79 on:** September 29, 2003, 12:06:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by HoHun

It's not like the returning escort fighters really flew well-prepared strafing attacks against heavily defended targets.

They just roamed the countryside and shot up everything that looked like an easy target.

Not too much risk involved, really.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun) [/B]

I'm late to the party, but I beg to differ on this one HoHun.
"In the air and on the ground" was what Doolittle's directive was when he took over. If the Luftwaffe didn't come up to fight, the fighters went down and hit the airfields. That's why 8th AF was giving credit for ground kills, to encourage the practice of hitting the Luftwaffe anywhere.

The list of 8th AF flyers, including Aces that went down to ground fire while attacking airfields is long. The list of 8th Aces that went down in air combat is one that I can recall, Kidd Hofer.

Off the top of my head, Duane Beeson, Johnny Godfrey, Gabby Gabreski, Glen Duncan, Walt Beckham, Pierce McKennon, Sid Woods, and many other Aces went down to flak while on airfield runs. They knew the risk but were following through on what Doolittle wanted. "In the air and on the ground"

That meant hitting airfields if the Luftwaffe wasn't flying, not "easy targets". And the 51 drivers were right there along with the Jugs and 38s, knowing the risk.

Dan/Slack

HoHun · « **Reply #80 on:** September 29, 2003, 02:15:38 PM »

Hi Guppy,

>"In the air and on the ground" was what Doolittle's directive was when he took over. If the Luftwaffe didn't come up to fight, the fighters went down and hit the airfields. That's why 8th AF was giving credit for ground kills, to encourage the practice of hitting the Luftwaffe anywhere.

True. My question is, though, whether these were escort fighters returning from routine missions, or whether they were sent out specially to attack these targets (as I suspect).

Even if they were returning from routine missions, attacks on airfields had to rely on good unit cohesion - typical tactics for attacking airfields relied on 3 squadrons working in close cooperation.

For fighters who came home in smaller units, it was "targets of opportunity" again, and as thousands of targets of this kind were hit, I consider this the rule rather than the exception.

(Doolittle's strategy emphasizes my point about "holding the Luftwaffe down" in the unrelated discussion about which type won the war, by the way :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

327thBS · « **Reply #81 on:** September 30, 2003, 04:08:43 PM »

Tempest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..maybe the P-51"D" but i rather take the tempest..

Oldman731 · « **Reply #82 on:** September 30, 2003, 09:53:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by HoHun
True. My question is, though, whether these were escort fighters returning from routine missions, or whether they were sent out specially to attack these targets (as I suspect).

Some of each (i.e. some of the people Guppy named were 9th AF guys on ground attack missions, and some were 8th AF escort pilots who hit the deck on the way home). Clearly from early 1944 on, though, the 8th had orders to do ground attack after the bombers had passed through their escort area and the fighters were released to go home. Your original point, though, seemed to be that 8th AF strafing was a relatively risk-free occupation, which it clearly was not.

- oldman

TheManx · « **Reply #83 on:** September 30, 2003, 11:03:01 PM »

I'd take the Spitfire MK9 over any other plane within it's time. During that period, there wasn't the air superiority as there was for the late model US planes, and diving and running wasn't always an option. Also, while it was in service it was one of the faster planes in the air.

Also, for those not believing that the Spitfires escorted bomber groups, our Aces High squadron name "416 Lynx" is taken from a WWII RCAF squadron who often escorted US bombers and did it quite successfully. They didn't always have the range of the US planes, but they were still great escorts (a real tribute to the plane considering it was designed primarily a defensive fighter).

bolillo_loco · « **Reply #84 on:** September 30, 2003, 11:54:35 PM »

while it may not have had the most kills, one thing is for sure the lynx trainer was never shot down nor was one crashed by even the worst pilot cadet. it had to be the safest one.

HoHun · « **Reply #85 on:** October 01, 2003, 01:56:22 AM »

Hi Oldman,

>Your original point, though, seemed to be that 8th AF strafing was a relatively risk-free occupation, which it clearly was not.

Ocasionally, fighters were shot up even in the cruise if they returned home at low altitude - and that was the recommended way to return home if you were travelling alone or as a pair. "Risk-free" indeed has to be considered "relative" to all other activities in a war.

My original point was that once the 8th Air Force fighters were released, they picked "relatively" easy targets to strafe, and I still maintain that.

This point is of interest for the escort fighter discussion because an exaggeration of the dangers of strafing leads to neglecting the main job of the escort - air-to-air fighting. I'm confident that when you look at the loss numbers, you're going see that the majority of escort fighter losses were to enemy aircraft, not to ground fire.

And that's why the P-51, a pure-bred air-to-air fighter with immaculate high-speed controllability and superior maneouvrability, is the better choice for an escort fighter.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

HoHun · « **Reply #86 on:** October 01, 2003, 01:58:42 AM »

Hi Bolilloloco

>one thing is for sure the lynx trainer was never shot down nor was one crashed by even the worst pilot cadet. it had to be the safest one.

It got even fewer miles per gallon than the P-47, though.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Guppy35 · « **Reply #87 on:** October 01, 2003, 11:16:48 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by HoHun

My original point was that once the 8th Air Force fighters were released, they picked "relatively" easy targets to strafe, and I still maintain that.

This point is of interest for the escort fighter discussion because an exaggeration of the dangers of strafing leads to neglecting the main job of the escort - air-to-air fighting. I'm confident that when you look at the loss numbers, you're going see that the majority of escort fighter losses were to enemy aircraft, not to ground fire.

And that's why the P-51, a pure-bred air-to-air fighter with immaculate high-speed controllability and superior maneouvrability, is the better choice for an escort fighter.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun) [/B]

Use the number of Aces lost to air combat vs ground fire HoHun and apply that to other pilots. There is no comparison. Also consider that there were stretches where the Luftwaffe just wasn't coming up so the fighter drivers went down to find them. Also keep in mind the 8th policy of avoiding equal credit for ground kills on aircraft. They promoted the idea of going down and hitting the Luftwaffe anywhere they could find them.

Remember that the Luftwaffe essentially kept it's planes on the ground from August-September 1944 trying to marshall enough forces for a major challenge to the 8th AF.

These were young, aggressive, think they'll live forever fighter pilots who wanted that kill marking below the cockpit rail. They weren't trained to avoid combat just cause it might be dangerous.

Dan/Slack

bigjava · « **Reply #88 on:** October 01, 2003, 12:03:30 PM »

thinking to my life....no dubt

p38!!!!

more stabile at higth altitude, accelerate in less time than p-51 and jug, less view but more strong: 2 engine means i can fly without one....

HoHun · « **Reply #89 on:** October 01, 2003, 04:46:09 PM »

Hi Guppy,

>Use the number of Aces lost to air combat vs ground fire HoHun and apply that to other pilots.

How many aces did the 8th Air Force have, and how many were lost to ground fire? Complete statistics could indeed tell us something, but just dropping some names can't.

>Also keep in mind the 8th policy of avoiding equal credit for ground kills on aircraft.

My point is that the vast majority of targets attacked by the Tieffliegern were less dangerous than flak-protected aircraft. Any vehicle moving on the streets was Tiefflieger prey, including horse-drawn carts and bicycles. Thousands of such targets were hit - these were the low-risk "targets of opportunity" I'm talking about. By extraordinary bad luck, you might end up over a camouflaged military installation with flak guns ready and take a beating, but other than that - easy targets.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)