Author Topic: Analysis of Aircraft Guns  (Read 4084 times)

Offline Batz

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Analysis of Aircraft Guns
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2003, 09:03:29 PM »
Most of umm no longer play ah so I dunno. We had a chart like the above for each country.

Most of us quit the "building stuff" and i guess the info went with it. I will email a few guys and see if they still have it.

Offline brady

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« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2003, 09:13:51 PM »
Your basing the pound equilvencys by doing the math right?, based on 2500 pounds to kill a hanger corect?, and It was understanding that Rockets were 100 pound equilvancy in AH.

Offline Soda

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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2003, 11:43:45 AM »
ScJazz,
  Total damage capability doesn't define the best Jabo bird though.  If that is what you are looking for then the answer is pretty obvious, the P47D30.  It carries more bombs (2,500lbs), plus rockets and 8 .50's.  Thing is, you need to be able to use the bombs properly.  The gunfire power is really trivial compared to the bombload, same goes for rockets.  Strafing is ok, but none of the aircraft in AH have enough ammo, or guns, to make strafing the most important component of their Jabo capability against buildings.  Typically people can't get near their potential anyway with Jabo attacks... they miss with the bombs all too often when that is the most important part of the attack.

  There are all kinds of situations though to consider that are totally non-damage potential related to a good jabo bird.  Survivability, situation, damage tolerance, defenses, etc.

-Soda

Offline mos

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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2003, 12:10:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by scJazz
How many buildings can a M3 destroy on its' own?

It takes 250 rounds from a .50 cal to destroy a town building.  So the answer is four.

I've had the chance to test this out once or twice.  :D

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2003, 02:32:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Soda
ScJazz,
  Total damage capability doesn't define the best Jabo bird though.  If that is what you are looking for then the answer is pretty obvious, the P47D30.  It carries more bombs (2,500lbs), plus rockets and 8 .50's.  Thing is, you need to be able to use the bombs properly.  The gunfire power is really trivial compared to the bombload, same goes for rockets.  Strafing is ok, but none of the aircraft in AH have enough ammo, or guns, to make strafing the most important component of their Jabo capability against buildings.  Typically people can't get near their potential anyway with Jabo attacks... they miss with the bombs all too often when that is the most important part of the attack.

  There are all kinds of situations though to consider that are totally non-damage potential related to a good jabo bird.  Survivability, situation, damage tolerance, defenses, etc.

-Soda


Soda, I'm not sure why you seem to be dismissing the idea of this study. If in fact dismissing is what you are doing. I couldn't agree more with your comments about survivability, defenses, etc. As for the ability to use the droppable ordnance correctly again you are 100% correct. However the information I already have gathered shows that the P47-D30s ability to destroy a target rests in large measure on its' guns. Quoting myself earlier here...

P47-D30
Gun Payload: 3400 lbs @ 500 yards
Ord Payload: 4060 lbs*
Total Effective Payload: 7460 lbs

The above information obviously doesn't reflect the comments that HiTech gave us about range, doesn't have updated damage information for the guns, and includes an unproven statement about rocket damage. However it does show pretty clearly that a P47-D30s ability to inflict damage rests on the guns to a large degree, somewhere around 35% - 50%.

Quote
Originally posted by mos
It takes 250 rounds from a .50 cal to destroy a town building. So the answer is four.

I've had the chance to test this out once or twice.


It was a fairly rhetorical question. I was trying to convey to Soda why such information could be considered useful. Yes, it does take 250 rounds. It also takes the same 250 rounds for any vehicle mounted .50 to destroy fuel, ammo, troop, or radar.

Quote
Originally posted by brady
Your basing the pound equilvencys by doing the math right?, based on 2500 pounds to kill a hanger corect?, and It was understanding that Rockets were 100 pound equilvancy in AH.


A standard MA Fighter/Bomber Hanger requires 2781.2 lbs of damage to reach destruction. This figure straight out of the settings. I've heard comments that rockets do 100 to 156 lbs of damage at varying times. Anecdotal evidence suggests that 156lbs is the correct answer. A Vehicle Hanger at a Vehicle base can be killed using 6 US 5" rockets. The hanger has a damage level of 781lbs. If the rockets only did 100lbs of damage each then the hanger wouldn't be destroyed. I haven't yet had a chance to determine the exact amount of damage a US 5" rocket does but this is on the list of things to do.

Offline Soda

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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2003, 03:07:14 PM »
I'm not dismissing the test at all, I just think the answers you are looking for are pretty easily calculable in about 10 minute total time.

I went offline, fired into a hanger, killed it in ~2375 rounds of .50.  Given that, and the bomb/rocket potential (rockets are right around 150lbs each), we see numbers similar to what you suggest (2,500lbs + 1,500lbs + ~3,400lbs (bombs, rockets, guns)).

I'd love to see these number calculated, don't get me wrong, but it should be really easy and only take a couple of minutes for each.  Not many aircraft have the 3,400 round capacity of a P-47 though.

The only thing HT said was that range didn't make a difference for bullet damage calculation on ground targets.  So hits at 100 yards = hits at 800 yards.

Feel free to test these, I'd love to hear the results for a number of gun systems in the game.  I just don't think this is the way to classify the best "jabo" bird as total damage potential is just one aspect.  If we classified best bomber by bombload then the Lanc would be the winner hands down, but it is not.

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2003, 05:52:20 PM »
The whole JABO/Field Pork factor is an offshoot of another conversation rolling around these boards. Personally my main question is really the "how many 110s are needed to turn HQ into rubble" thing.

As for it taking 10 minutes. Perhaps if I was willing to accept less than perfect results but in actuality takes a little bit longer for the extra precision. If the precision wasn't such an issue we would have missed the bug that occurs firing at D150 or less.

Offline brady

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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2003, 08:04:22 PM »
Thats interesting, it was to the best of my knowledge 2,500 pounds for a hanger, but HT did say at some point that he was going to adjust it higher if he fixed the Killogram/pound equilvancy issue, so if the 2,700 pound adjustment was indead made than I gues he did so, howeaver in the CT we still almost always use 2,500 pounds for hanger's It has also been my experance that each 5 inch US rocket had a 100 pound equilvancy, but it could well be the higher figure you sight, howeaver if this is so then I think the P38 is overload at max load, I know for a fact that the P47 caryes more ordance than it should.


 All that aside the Question of Which is the Best Jabo is kinda to a degree a mater of taste, depending on what you want to do with it. When I was score whoing around the MA  fro my first couple years in AH, imo the P38 was the best Atack plane...

 Why: It caried it's ordance very easly climbed better than the P47 and handeled much better, pluss it had an Hispano. For a Rank atack sortie, I would Kill one hanger, in one dive two 1K bombs were droped followed by 5 rockets into the target, then I pulled out and used the 5 remaing rockets on a field object or two, then I entered Vulch mode and typicaly 12 kills was easly acheavable with the ammo load.
   The P38 did all the much better than the P47 did, although the P47 had more potential destructive power it was not nearly as handy in the doing of it.
   The only other contender is the Me 110G, which after the Adaption of the Killorgam/Pound equilvancy fix was now competative, howeaver the P38 still has the advantage if the Hanger hardness is in fact 2,700 pounds, espichaly if the rockets are higher than 100pounds. The cannons are very lethal on the Me 110, but having to use them aganst ground targets is not the best use for them, killing is, and hear you see the differance between the P38 and the 110.
 The C-hog is another Killer Atack platform, it's quartet of Hisppanos and the huge ammo load for them are a formadable combo, but the P38 does the same thing easer, in terms of carying the ordance to target, and it caryes more weight in ordance than the C-hog,but those cannos are deadly thats for shure, magore killing can be done with them aganst everything, Planes, GV's ect...

        But this is all as I said a  matter of tast, since I use atack planes or would in a MA type seting for a rank sortie, if your looking at it from a shear potiental distructive effect then I beleave the best atack plane is the JU 88.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 08:10:59 PM by brady »

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2003, 09:12:47 AM »
I for one would love to see the finished list too scJazz. Wel done on the testing so far.

I have always wondered where on the list of best weight carriers the rarer less used planes are. Tempests and P40E's and other rarely used jabo capable planes.

If i had the information i could certainly plan better missions involving the lesser used aircraft. For instance if i know i need 1 hanger and several ammo/fuel bunkers I can then tell what the minimum number of aircraft of a certain type i need to take.This means instead of getting as many as we can and waiting to roll we can go as soon as we have what we know is enough ordinance to do the job.This will lessen the gangbang type attacks which is a good thing.

please continue, or of course like you said better still if HTC gives the values out, that would indeed be a cool thing to give the customers.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2003, 09:15:04 AM by hazed- »

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2003, 09:53:11 AM »
I have tested the guns shooting friendly ground structures and was unable to ever get two identical test results (i.e. the number of .50 rounds it took to kill a hangar varied with each test).  My guess is that there is some element of randomness in the damage that each round does or the damage that the building absorbs.  Since ht says range does not effect weapon lethality against buildings this is probably what you are observing...

Hooligan

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2003, 10:08:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hooligan
I have tested the guns shooting friendly ground structures and was unable to ever get two identical test results (i.e. the number of .50 rounds it took to kill a hangar varied with each test).  My guess is that there is some element of randomness in the damage that each round does or the damage that the building absorbs.  Since ht says range does not effect weapon lethality against buildings this is probably what you are observing...

Hooligan


Hooligan,

I have 11 tests of both the .30 and .50 GV Mounted M2 done at ranges greater than 150 yards. 10 of these tests were equal to each other respectively. 1600 rounds for the .30 and 400 rounds for the .50. The 11th test varied by exactly 1 bullet.

I also have 3 tests of the .50 taken at under 150 yards that show the variation 407, 414 and 415 rounds. No problem with aiming. Hitech has said that damage is constant. Has to be a bug of some sort.

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2003, 12:05:08 PM »
What follows is the current update on gun damages. To finish all aircraft the following planes and vehicles still needs to be tested.

IL2, Hurricane II D, C.202, C.205, 109G10, 109E4, Tempest, and Ostwind, M8, Panzer, Tiger

Once I finish this list I'll put up a webpage where you can download the Excel spreadsheet or view the contents in HTML.

Gun Type Mounted On Rounds* Dam in #
.30 M2 GV LVT 1600 0.3125
.50 M2 GV LVT 400 1.25
.50 M2 AC A20-G 427 1.17
12.7mm Ho-103 KI-61 501 0.998
20mm Ho-5 KI-61 149 3.36
7.7mm Type 97 A6M2 1686 0.30
20mm Type 99 Mk 1 A6M2 146 3.42
20mm Type 99 Mk 2 N1K2-J 130 3.85
.303 Browning AC Spit V 1685 0.30
20mm M2 AC P-38L 124 4.03
12.7mm UBS Yak-9T 433 1.15
20mm ShVAK Yak-9U 144 3.47
37mm NS37 Yak-9T  30 16.67
20mm B-20 LA-7 144 3.47

* Rounds is a count how many were necessary to inflict 500lbs of damage.

Offline Soda

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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2003, 10:30:44 AM »
ScJazz, did you manage to finish the tests on the guns you were missing?

-Soda

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2003, 10:23:30 AM »
Sorry not yet... have had a cold for past few days and spent what energy/time I did have flying.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2003, 04:43:27 PM »
Here is some old gun data from AH 1.02...

http://www.lvcm.com/jayb/ahgun102.htm

In general the lethality ratios seem close to what scJazz's current tests show.

Hooligan