Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?

[lazs2]

Go faster.... would you rather the guy had a 7600 Remington in 308?

I have a Ruger mini 14.  It isn't an assault rifle.  I don't use it for home defense either.   I have a 1942 M1 Garrand and a 1943 SMLE.   Would you allow me to have these weapons?

So... How many cops have been killed by assault weapon weilding perps while trying to save your family lately?
lazs

[gofaster]

Originally posted by lazs2
So how big a threat are assualt weapons to your family?   I mean put in perspective.   Your neighbors swimming pool is more of a threat.
lazs

My neighbor's swimming pool won't go through a double-layer of glass, a 1/4" of plexi, and another double-layer of glass while racing down a dark interstate road.  Neither will a knife.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by lazs2
So... How many cops have been killed by assault weapon weilding perps while trying to save your family lately?
lazs

Most recently:
http://www.tampagov.net/dept_police/memorial/marrero.asp

Full list:
http://www.tampagov.net/dept_police/memorial/index.asp

I actually had plans to become a cop, but decided it wasn't worth the risk.

On average, one police officer is killed in the line of duty every 52 hours. There are 65,000 criminal assaults against police officers every year, resulting in more than 23,000 injuries.

Source: http://www.tampagov.net/dept_police/memorial/index.asp

[miko2d]

Gofaster,

 I see what you mean and see where you are mistaken. It's the same mistake people were commiting for millenia despite warnings all those times.

 There is danger in the world. There is risk. You cannot eliminate it with some simple law. It may seem to you that you do when you concentrate on visible and ignore what you do not see but you are really moving the risk in another area where it is not watched as carefully and may be even greater.

 Governments often promised people security in exchange for surrender of the guns. The governments also killed many more hundreds of millions of people in 20th century than any criminals, rebels, etc.

 An armed neighbour may be a slight risk to you - as well as a neighbour who has kids, car, elecricity, fire or any other potentially destructive force.
 On the other hand an armed and weapons-proficient neighbour with a spare SKS (for you?) can be a great factor reducing your other risks.

 miko

[miko2d]

lazs2: So... How many cops have been killed by assault weapon weilding perps while trying to save your family lately?

gofaster: Most recently.../b]

 gofaster - you are avoiding a question and using it as an opportunity to spew emotional rhetoric that has nothing to do with substantiation of your cause or the question asked.

 In general - such a great number of policemen killed by criminals calls for arming the law-abiding citizens, not disarming them.

 miko

[gofaster]

Originally posted by miko2d
lazs2: So... How many cops have been killed by assault weapon weilding perps while trying to save your family lately?

gofaster: Most recently.../b]

 gofaster - you are avoiding a question and using it as an opportunity to spew emotional rhetoric that has nothing to do with substantiation of your cause or the question asked.

 In general - such a great number of policemen killed by criminals calls for arming the law-abiding citizens, not disarming them.

 miko

How can my pointing an example of the risk assault rifles pose to my family be deemed to be avoiding a question?  He wanted to know what the risk was, so I said "Here ya go."  Lois wasn't stabbed.  She didn't drown.  She wasn't conked on the head with a hammer.  She was gunned down in the parking lot of an apartment complex 3 blocks away from where I buy my groceries.

I didn't see any citizens charging out of their doorways with their guns drawn.  They were all heading the other way.

Same with the north Hollywood shoot-out.

http://users.snowcrest.net/marnells/officer.htm

http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/28/shootout.update/

I don't recall seeing many citizens grabbing their rifles and taking shots at the perps in the 44-minute shooting spree.  I think the notion of an armed citizenry rising up to stop a crime is a bit outdated.  The more likely response to an armed criminal is to turn and run away.

[muckmaw]

Miko-

Read my post again. If you re-read it you'll see that I was not insulting anyone. Perhaps I should use "Weapon Enthusiast" instead of "Gun Nut". Ahh, whatever. On sencond thought, don't. You're not worth the effort.  You talk to much, and listen too little.

Lazs-

VERY IMPORTANT: What do you mean I have the wrong tool for the job?

Perhaps you can recommend something? Here's what I need. Something I can store for extended periods of time,  not used regularly, easy to secure from a 3 year old, easy to ready in the middle of the night when awoken by an intruder, and good for close in fire, with little chance of collateral damage.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by muckmaw
Here's what I need. Something I can store for extended periods of time,  not used regularly, easy to secure from a 3 year old, easy to ready in the middle of the night when awoken by an intruder, and good for close in fire, with little chance of collateral damage.

My first thought was pistol-grip shotgun, but the collateral damage issue makes me lean towards a .22 Ruger pistol.  The small shell shouldn't exit the body, but still provide a level of safety from intrusion.  Its also small enough to be hidden away in a locked box/gun case and stored in a closet or under a bed.

But hey, I don't really know much about guns so I'll let the others give some advice.

Also, while we're on the topic, as a first-time shooter, where would I go for lessons?

[Trell]

muckmaw:
Perhaps you can recommend something? Here's what I need. Something I can store for extended periods of time, not used regularly, easy to secure from a 3 year old, easy to ready in the middle of the night when awoken by an intruder, and good for close in fire, with little chance of collateral damage.



lol a golf club

[gofaster]

Originally posted by Trell
muckmaw said:
Perhaps you can recommend something? Here's what I need. Something I can store for extended periods of time, not used regularly, easy to secure from a 3 year old, easy to ready in the middle of the night when awoken by an intruder, and good for close in fire, with little chance of collateral damage.


Trell responded:
lol a golf club

Actually, I use an aluminum baseball bat.  Works well against dogs who maul 4runners, too!

[niknak]

The only people who should not be allowed to own an assault rifle are nutters and phycos.

Anyone who wants to own an assault rifle must be at least a borderline phsycotic. Ergo the only people who should be allowed to own assault rifles are the people who don't want them.

[muckmaw]

I really thought the pistol grip 20 gauge would fit the bill.

Lazs says it's wrong, and I know he is a "Weapon Enthusiast" so I wanted his opinion.

[miko2d]

gofaster: How can my pointing an example of the risk assault rifles pose to my family be deemed to be avoiding a question?  He wanted to know what the risk was, so I said "Here ya go."  Lois wasn't stabbed.  She didn't drown.  She wasn't conked on the head with a hammer.  She was gunned down in the parking lot of an apartment complex 3 blocks away from where I buy my groceries.

 You are not being honest here. It is perfectly clear from your responce that you understand he is asking about the number of policemen killed by rifles.

 I responce you post the cites and quiote large numbers:  On average, one police officer is killed in the line of duty every 52 hours. There are 65,000 criminal assaults against police officers every year, resulting in more than 23,000 injuries. which implies they were killed with the assault rifles, or at least considerabe number of them.

 That is not true and you well know it. Even in that perticular case of Lois Marrerro there is no information what she was killed with. You list a whole bunch of items with which she was not shot but you do not state that she was shot with a rifle. So how could it be "pointing an example of the risk assault rifles pose"?

 You poster a valid link before - specificaly about the assault weapons-related murders. Since 1982 to now excluding the DC snipers it adds up to 62. That is 62 too many but a muniscule fraction of people killed by handguns, edged and blunt weapons, etc.
 Anyway, that is a valid statistics and you did not need to misrepresent the facts with teh officers.

 Asle, nobody listed here is defencive use of weapons (including rifles) which happens about 2 million times a year and prevents thousands of deaths.

 miko

[gofaster]

Originally posted by miko2d
gofaster: How can my pointing an example of the risk assault rifles pose to my family be deemed to be avoiding a question?  He wanted to know what the risk was, so I said "Here ya go."  Lois wasn't stabbed.  She didn't drown.  She wasn't conked on the head with a hammer.  She was gunned down in the parking lot of an apartment complex 3 blocks away from where I buy my groceries.

 You are not being honest here. It is perfectly clear from your responce that you understand he is asking about the number of policemen killed by rifles.

Unfortunately, that level of specificity isn't available (at least, I haven't found it yet).  I can cite 2 specific examples.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/19/Pasco/Indictment__Murder_in.shtml

http://www.emergency.com/flcopsht.htm

As for Marraro, witness account here:

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGA9NPZDI0D.html

I suspect it was an automatic handgun that was used, but the article doesn't say.

[Dune]

Semi-Automatic Firearms

(Including the most current crime data from the FBI)
Semi-automatic firearms were introduced more than a century ago. The first semi-automatic rifle, a Mannlicher, was introduced in 1885; the first semi-automatic pistols in the 1890s; and the first semi-automatic shotgun, the ever-popular Browning "Auto 5," was patented in 1900. Theodore Roosevelt, U.S. president 1901-1909 and an NRA Life Member, hunted with a semi-automatic rifle. Today, Americans own approximately 30 million semi-automatic rifles, pistols and shotguns -- approximately 15% of privately owned firearms in the United States.

Semi-automatic rifles, including many defined as "assault weapons" by the 1994 federal gun-ban, are used for formal marksmanship competitions, recreational target shooting and hunting. Semi-automatic shotguns are very widely used for hunting as well as skeet, trap and sporting clays shooting. Semi-automatic handguns are used in formal marksmanship competitions, as well as for recreational shooting and some hunting. Many semi-automatic firearms, including some affected by the federal assault weapons law, are highly valued by gun collectors. They are also commonly kept and, as witnesses testified during hearings before the U.S. House of Representatives Crime Subcommittee in 1995, used for protection against criminals.

 

How Semi-Automatic Firearms Operate
Like all firearms other than fully-automatic machineguns, semi-automatics fire only once each time the trigger is pulled. All semi-automatic firearms function in the same fashion; the energy produced when a round of ammunition is fired is used to cycle the firearm's internal mechanism, thereby ejecting the empty case of the fired round and reloading a fresh round into the firearm's chamber.

"Gun control" activists falsely claim that semi-automatics "spray fire," like machineguns. One even boasted that "The public's confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons -- anything that looks like a machine gun is presumed to be a machine gun -- can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."

When gun-ban supporters are forced to admit that semi-automatics are not machineguns, they claim semi-automatics are "easy to convert" into machineguns. This, too, is false. Any firearm that would be "easy to convert" would not be approved by the BATF for sale to the general public. Additionally, any firearm part "designed and intended...for use in converting" a firearm into a machinegun is restricted under federal law. (Title 26, ß5845(b), U.S.C.) Illegal possession of either an illegally converted machinegun or an illegal conversion part is a federal felony punishable by 10 years in prison and $10,000 in fines.

Semi-Automatic Firearm Attachments & Ammunition
"Gun control" advocates claim, without basis, that various attachments common to military-style semi-automatic firearms provide advantages to criminals. It is on the basis of the presence of these attachments on a semi-automatic firearm that it is prohibited as an "assault weapon" under federal law. These attachments have been common to firearms (semi-automatic and not) for decades, however, with no evidence of their appeal or utility to criminals. Indeed, though "gun control" advocates claim that the attachments make a firearm more "crime-like," they remain silent about the far greater number of non-semi-automatic firearms to which the same attachments are common.

Detachable magazines, including those capable of holding more than ten rounds, were introduced more than a hundred years ago and are generally not a factor in crime. Police report that when criminals fire shots, they fire no more than a few rounds on average. Flash suppressors are found only on rifles (the category of firearm least often used in crimes), and perceptibly reduce the visible signature of rifle shots at a viewing distance of 100 yards or more, while virtually all criminal gunfire occurs within a few feet of its intended victims. Bayonet lugs are found on many millions of bolt-action rifles, as well as on "assault" type semi-automatics. Few, if any, violent crimes have been committed with bayonets affixed to rifles, of course. Even if a folding stock is used on a rifle or shotgun, federal law requires that the firearm be at least 26" in overall length.

Semi-automatics -- "assault weapons" or not -- use the same ammunition as other firearms, ammunition that has been in common use for decades. Medium-power .223 Remington and .308 Winchester rifle rounds used in most "assault weapons" were introduced in 1963 and 1952, respectively. The 7.62x39mm, .30 carbine and .30-'06 Springfield rifle calibers used in other "assault weapons" were introduced in 1945, 1941 and 1906, respectively; the .45 ACP and low-powered 9mm pistol calibers were introduced in 1906, 1905 and 1903, respectively; 12 gauge shot shells in 1868; the low-powered .22 rimfire round before the Civil War. The power of a firearm is not a priority for most criminals, however. A study for the Department of Justice found that of 13 attributes felons look for in a handgun, a handgun's "large caliber" ranked 9th. (J. Wright, P. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, 1987)

Assault Weapons and Crime
Confronted with FBI data showing that rifles of any type are used in only 3% of homicides, gun-ban sponsor Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) told the San Diego Union-Tribune (1/30/94) "I don't doubt that at all. ..t is probably less than 3%." On CBS's "60 Minutes" (2/5/95) she said, "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America turn them all in, I would have done it." Even the Washington Post, which supports the ban, admitted "No one should have any illusions about what was accomplished (by the ban). Assault weapons play a part in only a small percentage of crime. The provision is mainly symbolic; its virtue will be if it turns out to be, as hoped, a stepping stone to broader gun control." (9/15/94)

State and local police reports indicate that less than 1% of violent crimes are committed with assault weapons. Criminologist Gary Kleck has determined that less than 0.5% of all violent crimes involve assault weapons. In a survey of State Prison Inmates, less than 1% of criminals reported having carried a "military-type" weapon when they committed the crimes for which they were incarcerated. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Guns Used in Crime," July 1995)

Washington, D.C. -- None of D.C.'s 3,600 homicides 1985-94 involved any kind of rifle. Rifles of any description are used in about 0.15% of robberies and assaults. (Metropolitan Police Department of D.C.)

Florida -- A 1989 Florida Legislature commission found that during the previous 4 years, assault weapons were used in 2.5% of firearm homicides, 0.2% of firearm assaults, and 0.02% of firearm robberies.

California -- A statewide survey of law enforcement agencies conducted by the California Department of Justice revealed that only 3.7% of firearms used in homicides and assaults (roughly 1% of all homicides and assaults) and less than 1% of firearms seized by police for any reason were assault weapons. "It is clear from this data that assault weapons play a very small role in assault and homicide cases submitted to city and county (forensics) labs," the report stated. "Many of these weapons are infrequently seen by law enforcement." The report pointed out that "When this new 'assault weapon' legislation was proposed (1989), the California Department of Justice, Forensics Services (BFS) records indicated that the incidence of 'assault' weapon use was very low."

"Confirmation that 'assault weapons' are unusual in firearm assaults comes from the scarcity of representative specimens in crime laboratory collections," according to the report. "Firearm examiners generally agree that these weapons are infrequently encountered in casework relating to homicides and assaults." In conclusion, the report stated that "the incidence of the use of 'assault weapons' is very much lower than is represented in the media and in political statements." (California Criminalistics Institute, Calif. Dept. of Justice, "Report On A Survey Of The Use Of 'Assault Weapons' In California In 1990," 7/17/91)

Data from police experts were deliberately avoided by politicians pushing California's 1989 assault weapon bill, however, as an internal memorandum to Calif. Asst. Atty. General Patrick Kenady noted: "Information on assault weapons would not be sought from forensics laboratories as it was unlikely to support the theses on which the legislation would be based."

New Jersey -- "There is not a really high percentage of crimes committed with assault firearms." (N.J. Attorney General's office) "Assault weapons are used in an underwhelming .026 of 1% of crimes in New Jersey. This means that my officers are more likely to confront an escaped tiger from the local zoo than to confront an assault rifle in the hands of a drug-crazed killer on the streets." (Trenton Deputy Police Chief Joseph Constance)

Virginia -- A survey of inmates during November 1992-May 1993 found that none of the adult offenders had carried an "assault rifle" at the scene of a crime.

Massachusetts -- Between 1986-91, 0.5% of homicides involved "assault" rifles. (Mass. State Police)

Connecticut -- Of 11,002 firearms seized by police between 1988-92, only 1.8% were assault weapons. (Connecticut State Police)