f7f

[brady]

I Beleave the Criteria is, or is preceived to be that they saw combat/Killed somthing or were killed, but as many have already mentioned their are a freaking ton of planes that have yet to be modeled that are desperatly neaded for the CT and for event's, and working on late war uber planes that saw no actualy combat sould be imo somthing that is not considered until much later in AH, we already have some planes that had very few kill's in AH, F4U-4, Ta 152, Me 163...

[HoHun]

Hi Widewing,

>Most of the bugs had been ironed out by early '46.

The P-80 was not a WW2 fighter - it was a WW2 non-combattant.

Even in early 1946, not not all bugs had been ironed out yet, the type had to be pampered for quite a bit longer. And even with a war going in, it seems highly unlikely that it would have been flying combat missions in 1945.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Puck]

You need to pick up the dev kit for TargetWare and set up "Target: Almost fought in WWII"...

...has anyone seen my Ki84 lately?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Karnak
Its not just the F7F that is eliminated by barely missing WWII.

As scary as Widewing makes the F7F out to be, the Hornet would be worse and it missed WWII by a similar margin, the first active squadron flying their Hornets over Berlin on VE day.

The F7F and Hornet would be too much for many.  Hell, the Meteor, which was clearly in service and seeing usage, is thought to be inappropriate my many players.

Which squadron was flying Hornets over Berlin? According to Green and Swanborough, the first production Hornet F.Mk.Is weren't delivered until April of 1945. The first squadron to be declared operational was 64 Squadron and that wasn't until May of 1946. Delivered doesn't mean operational. It take months to get the logistical base in place, train pilots and ground crews before being qualified as an operational unit. For example, the F4U-4 began reaching Navy depots in December of 1944, but the first squadron to go operational with the fighter wasn't until the end of February, 1945. And in this instance, they were previously flying F4Us, so pilot and maintenance training was minimal.

Grumman began deliveries of the F7F-1 in April of 1944, with deliveries of the F7F-2N beginning in October of 1944. First deliveries of the F8F-1 began on New Years eve, 1944.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Widewing,

>Most of the bugs had been ironed out by early '46.

The P-80 was not a WW2 fighter - it was a WW2 non-combattant.

Even in early 1946, not not all bugs had been ironed out yet, the type had to be pampered for quite a bit longer. And even with a war going in, it seems highly unlikely that it would have been flying combat missions in 1945.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Virtually all of the "bugs" were in the GE built J-33 engine and sub-systems. Eventually, production was given to Allison where the last of these issues were resolved. That said, even the J-33-GE-11 engine was a wonder of reliability when compared to the BMW and Jumo turbojets.

I agree that the P-80 was not a WWII combatant. However, Hap Arnold stated in 1947 that had the German jet program been a larger problem than it was, the P-80 would have been deployed whether it was ready or not. He also stated that Field Engineers solved problems far faster than factory Engineers as was demonstrated with the P-38 and P-51. Regarding these aircraft, Field Engineers would develop fixes and the factory would incorporate them. Doolittle's Engineering staff working with Allison Field Engineers designed a revised intake manifold for the Allison V-1710-89 and -91. It cured the detonation problem by better distributing the fuel/air mixture. Allison incorporated the new manifold into the V-1710-111 and -113 engines going on the P-38L. This was the primary solution to the engine failure woes experienced with the P-38J (there were other issues relating to turbo regulators, over-efficient intercoolers/radiators and a lack automatic engine controls).

My regards,

Widewing

[frank3]

Originally posted by mitchk
Look at the spesifications and tell me if you want it in AH, or if you are in the addministration tell us if we can or can't have it.
 

Nope, I think it's too late for a ww2 plane, and it would be like the same as the Boston or something like that; fast, but small payload and no defensive guns

[HoHun]

Hi Widewing,

>That said, even the J-33-GE-11 engine was a wonder of reliability when compared to the BMW and Jumo turbojets.

Don't confuse MTBF and life cycle. The German jets had a short life cycle, but were reasonably reliable during this life cycle. The P-80 would have been a single-engined jet flying over enemy territory - you can sure that the USAF would only employ it after all of the bugs were cured.

>However, Hap Arnold stated in 1947 that had the German jet program been a larger problem than it was, the P-80 would have been deployed whether it was ready or not.

His opposite number Adolph Galland stated in 1943 that the Me 262 was ready for front-line service. Generals tend to have limited insights into the technological aspects of the air war.

>He also stated that Field Engineers solved problems far faster than factory Engineers as was demonstrated with the P-38 and P-51.

If the solution was turning over jet engine production from General Electrics to Allison, that's nothing Field Engineers could have done. It's a good trait in Generals to have faith in their troops, though :-)

The P-80 certainly wouldn't have turned up in the ETO as a serious combat force before 1946.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Widewing]

Originally posted by frank3
Nope, I think it's too late for a ww2 plane, and it would be like the same as the Boston or something like that; fast, but small payload and no defensive guns

LOLOLOL....

Read the thread Frank, the F7F was one the most formidable piston powered FIGHTERS ever built! It's the enemy that would need defensive guns!  

My regards,

Widewing

[Westy]

"I Beleave the Criteria is, or is preceived to be that they saw combat/Killed somthing or were killed"


 That's the criteria used by many who prefer flying Axis aircraft in these games/sims. It draws the line in the sand very much in thier favour.

[HoHun]

Hi Westy,

>That's the criteria used by many who prefer flying Axis aircraft in these games/sims. It draws the line in the sand very much in thier favour.

Under all circumstances avoid saying it's about what might have been available in 1946, or the Axis guys will bury you in a pile of blueprints ;-)

But seriously, the criterion is rather reasonable, and in slightly different form, it was sort of the forum consensus for determining war entry dates:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26235&highlight=service+entry

The squadron service criterion isn't bad either, but it gives more a picture of what was technologically feasible than of what was tactically sensible. Just the answer to a different question, in a way.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Westy]

"... bury you in a pile of blueprints"


 Well there are worse things to get buried under

 I agree that the Axis had lots imagination laying on thier drafting tables IMO that's where most would have stayed or still have been in 46.   Don't get me wrong though.  *MY* line in the sand welcomes such fine aircraft as the HE-162, and even some Japanese late war developments into the war realm due to them being in regular production, and deployment even.  
 
 And I saw that other topic and IMO if the Allies had half the need driven by desperation that the Axis had then IMO the 47m/N, 51H, F8F, F7F, P-80 and others would have been in service a lot sooner. Just as they rushed the B-29 in before it's serious problems were worked out.

 Oh. And before I get labelled a late war uber dork,  I'd love to "fly" an I-16 just as much too

[humble]

The F7F-1 was available for deployment in 4th quarter of 1944...strictly a "political" decision to delay it's deployment....same basic reasoning as M-26 tank.

Whats amazing about the F7F is it was designed as a ground support carrier based aircraft, it carries a huge bomb load.

[HoHun]

...

[HoHun]

Hi Westy,

>Well there are worse things to get buried under

LOL! I have to agree :-)

>And I saw that other topic and IMO if the Allies had half the need driven by desperation that the Axis had then IMO the 47m/N, 51H, F8F, F7F, P-80 and others would have been in service a lot sooner. Just as they rushed the B-29 in before it's serious problems were worked out.

Well, I have my doubts about hastening up programs. The RLM history has seen many such attempts, and it's generally recognized as a history of bad mismanagement :-)

(Desperation can indeed be considered the enemy of innovation as it was the driver behind keeping the Me 109 as standard fighter.)

Technology doesn't lend itself easily to brute force approaches - the B-29 example where it worked it pretty unique, and the Boeing bomber still wasn't good enough to do the job it was designed for. If you look at it closely, Le May made it perform by making it do a different job!

Having a plane in front-line service isn't enough - it has to work well enough to perform effectively, and even efficiently. If it can't do that, it's not helping your cause - that's why it makes little sense to rush aircraft into service that aren't really ready yet.

(Though it's aimed at computer technology, "The Mythical Man-Month" by Frederick Brookes is an excellent book on why it's so difficult to develop cutting-edge technology, and why it's so difficult to deal with problems that arise during development.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Widewing
F7F-2N Nightfighters were flying combat sorties in the PTO just prior to VJ day. Any fighter operational, in squadron service, deployed to a war zone should qualify. By the term "squadron service", I mean in fully equipped, fully trained units. That would include the F7F, F8F and P-51H. Although I agree that these are low on the priority list with many other aircraft being needed first to fill out the plane set.

My regards,

Widewing

I dont agree entirely, I think an aircraft has to fight one or more of the enemies manned aircraft to qualify for AH.I dont agree with adding the meteor even, purely because it never met an enemy aircraft with a pilot in it but in AH it will and so, it then isnt a WW2 sim reallly.I would agree to them being added once we well and truelly run out of significant aircraft which DID see action from 1939 to 1945 VE day.The time will come when AH has done almost all the ones that saw action(at least the important ones) so I guess why not make other newer ones?.Theres plenty of time for the bearcats and seafury's and Mig15s and F86 sabres later