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Author Topic: The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16  (Read 795 times)

Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« on: October 02, 2003, 09:23:38 AM »
Quote by Mietla from another thread:

Quote
How can anyone be against a tax cut (in any shape and form) is beyond me.

Starve the f* beast which is eating us alive. 80-90 % of things they spend the money on is unconstitutional.


Yeah, I know, I know, but if f* "feels" good, so screw the Constitution.


I did a little research, and discovered that he is not quite correct in his assesment.

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Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


Quote
Amendment XVI - Income taxes authorized. Ratified 2/3/1913.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


Seems pretty straight forward to me. All you right wingers who claim that the government is stealing your money are wrong. You are also wrong in stating that the only thing the government can do with that money is provide for national defense.

Do you, or do you not, believe in the sanctity of the US Constitution and its amendments?
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Offline ra

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2003, 09:32:58 AM »
What the framers meant by 'general welfare' has been expanded to mean 'anything a politician can imagine.'

If the framers intended the US government to be a welfare state, why did the constitution need to be amended 150 years later to allow for a federal income tax?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 09:36:43 AM by ra »
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Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2003, 09:36:39 AM »
True, but isn't that reasonable considering how societies grow and develop over centuries?

General welfare can mean many things. Like national health care, to name only one. Health care sounds like a basic necessity to support my general welfare.
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Offline DmdNexus

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2003, 09:48:22 AM »
Free sex is good for the general welfare.
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Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2003, 09:48:50 AM »
Quote
If the framers intended the US government to be a welfare state, why did the constitution need to be amended 150 years later to allow for a federal income tax?


Ra, with that line of reasoning, it follows to ask why any amendments were allowed. If the Framers had intended for women to vote, why did the constitution need to be amended 150 years later to allow all Americans the right to vote?

See what I mean?
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Offline ra

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2003, 09:50:12 AM »
I can't find the amendment which allows a federal welfare state.  See what I mean?
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Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2003, 10:01:18 AM »
Where in the constitution or the amendments do you see anything specifically prohibiting the government from providing for the welfare of it's people?
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Offline ra

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2003, 10:05:08 AM »
The 10th amendment.
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Offline muckmaw

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2003, 10:10:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by banana
Where in the constitution or the amendments do you see anything specifically prohibiting the government from providing for the welfare of it's people?


Government providing for the welfare of it's people..

Hmmmm...

Where have I heard this before.....

Hmmmm...

The People's Park....

The People's Army....

I know I've seen this somewhere....
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Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2003, 10:10:32 AM »
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Amendment X - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


But the constitution *does* provide the government with the power to provide for the welfare of its citizens. See my original post.

The 10th amendment does not prohibit this as you claim.
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Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2003, 10:12:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Government providing for the welfare of it's people..

Hmmmm...

Where have I heard this before.....

Hmmmm...

The People's Park....

The People's Army....

I know I've seen this somewhere....


Yes, muckmaw, you've seen it here:

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
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Offline ra

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2003, 10:15:25 AM »
The federal government was established to do things the states could not do, or could not do well, individually.  Denfense, international treaties, etc.  The constitution was written to ensure that the federal government did not take over all power.  If the framers had intended for the federal government to be responsible for the general welfare of each state's citizens, they would have made that clear.  It says 'general welfare of the United States', not 'general welfare of the citizens of each state'.  A trade agreement with a foreign country is an example of something done for the general welfare of the United States.  

ra
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 10:18:01 AM by ra »
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Offline JBA

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2003, 10:18:22 AM »
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

FLAT TAX
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Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2003, 10:18:55 AM »
I can't see how they could've made it any clearer, Ra. It's right there in black & white.
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Offline Wanker

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The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2003, 10:19:52 AM »
Quote
FLAT TAX


Sounds good to me.
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