The truth about the US Constitution: Section 8 and Amendment 16

[AKIron]

Originally posted by banana

Seems pretty straight forward to me. All you right wingers who claim that the government is stealing your money are wrong. You are also wrong in stating that the only thing the government can do with that money is provide for national defense.

Well let's see,

20~30%.........Income Tax
15%...............Self Employment Tax
5~10%...........Property Tax (of my net)
8.25%.............Sales Tax (on most of what I buy)
Various other taxes on things like my ISP and Cell phone

It may not technically be theft but it sure makes my bellybutton sore.

[ra]

Originally posted by banana
I can't see how they could've made it any clearer, Ra. It's right there in black & white.

Yes, if you assume that 'general welfare' means 'anything goes'.  Despite article 8 allowing taxation, they had to amend the constitution to  allow taxation of income.  But the 'general welfare' clause itself seems to have almost no limits.

ra

[Wanker]

Originally posted by AKIron
Well let's see,

20~30%.........Income Tax
15%...............Self Employment Tax
5~10%...........Property Tax (of my net)
8.25%.............Sales Tax (on most of what I buy)
Various other taxes on things like my ISP and Cell phone

It may not technically be theft but it sure makes my bellybutton sore.

Mine, too. I didn't say I liked the amount that we're taxed. My intent was to disprove some of the things zealots like Mietla and his ilk dream up on this board.

[Wanker]

Originally posted by ra
Yes, if you assume that 'general welfare' means 'anything goes'.  Despite article 8 allowing taxation, they had to amend the constitution to  allow taxation of income.  But the 'general welfare' clause itself seems to have almost no limits.

ra

I agree, a lot of it is perception of their original meaning. Similar to the greyness of the "Right to bear arms" part of the 2nd amendment.

[Eagler]

general welfare in the day this was crafted meant roads and bridges

how many unemployed ppl were spittin out kids, watching opra while collecting "general welfare" checks back then?

they are rolling over in their graves as you put these words in their mouths by distorting their meaning for your agenda ...

[Rude]

Originally posted by banana
But the constitution *does* provide the government with the power to provide for the welfare of its citizens. See my original post.

The 10th amendment does not prohibit this as you claim.

We are the Government...by and for the people ya know?

We went to war over a 4% tax....now it's like 75% inclusive of all forms of taxation. Waste is another factor that annoys me.

I'm all for paying taxes....it's what they've done with my money over the years that is really the problem.

[Wanker]

We are the Government...by and for the people ya know?

Well, then *we* had better do a better job of coming up with candidates who will stop wasting our money.

The American people have the power to change it. It's called the vote. But we struggle to get 40% to vote on election day. That is sad.

[ra]

Originally posted by banana
I agree, a lot of it is perception of their original meaning. Similar to the greyness of the "Right to bear arms" part of the 2nd amendment.

The 2nd amendment is not as grey as anti-gunners want it to be.  There was once an effort to depict it as an amendment which would only allow guns to be owned by citizens in 'a well regulated militia.'  That effort has been abandoned as it is overwhelmingly obvious, by reading the founders' writings on the subject,  that it the founders intended for individuals to have the right to bear arms.

As far as 'general welfare of the United States', which is only a small and relatively vague clause in a larger section, how does this scenario strike you:

Congress, in its infinite wisdom, passes a law to tax 100% of US income, and redistribute the money in a more fair and humanitarian way.  In your opinion, is there anything in the constitution that would prevent this?

ra

[Toad]

banana,

Connecticut, Florida, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah and Virginia did not ratify the 16th.

Kentucky, Tennessee and Wyoming reported ratification of the 16th, but there's no evidence they actually did so.

Further, in States that DID ratify, their State Constitutions require the Governor to sign. In 5 ratifying states, the Governor DID NOT sign as required.

There were 48 states then with 36 needed to ratify. 48 - 15 = 33.

Sorry, no Income Tax.  

17 other States have missing or incomplete evidence of ratification.


Time for a "do over". Maybe when we cut off their money totally, they'll give us a simpler system like Flat + Sales.

[Sixpence]

Some forms of government assistance are fine by me. I think the pell grant is a good example. If you are of low income, you can receive a grant for school you do not have to pay back. If someone with no skill or trade is put through a welding course or some other trade or skill(nurse for example), then I think this is a good investment. In time, the taxes they pay would have more than payed for their training. I also think that people who make too much $$ to qualify for a pell grant should not have to pay interest on the $$ they borrow. They are being penalized already by having to borrow the $$ in the first place. And if that is being a liberal, so be it.

[Wanker]

Toad,

The 16th Amendment, proposed on July 12, 1909.

State Date *
 
Alabama Aug 10, 1909  
Kentucky Feb 8, 1910  
South Carolina Feb 19, 1910  
Illinois Mar 1, 1910  
Mississippi Mar 7, 1910  
Oklahoma Mar 10, 1910  
Maryland Apr 8, 1910  
Georgia Aug 3, 1910  
Texas Aug 16, 1910  
Ohio Jan 19, 1911  
Idaho Jan 20, 1911  
Oregon Jan 23, 1911  
Washington Jan 26, 1911  
Montana Jan 30, 1911  
Indiana Jan 30, 1911  
California Jan 31, 1911  
Nevada Jan 31, 1911  
South Dakota Feb 3, 1911  
Nebraska Feb 9, 1911  
North Carolina Feb 11, 1911  
Colorado Feb 15, 1911  
North Dakota Feb 17, 1911  
Kansas Feb 18, 1911  
Michigan Feb 23, 1911  
Iowa Feb 24, 1911  
Missouri Mar 16, 1911  
Maine Mar 31, 1911  
Tennessee Apr 7, 1911  
Arkansas Apr 22, 1911  
Wisconsin May 26, 1911  
New York Jul 12, 1911  
Arizona Apr 6, 1912  
Minnesota Jun 11, 1912  
Louisiana Jun 28, 1912  
West Virginia Jan 31, 1913  
New Mexico Feb 3, 1913 *
Massachusetts Mar 4, 1913  
New Hampshire Mar 7, 1913

I count 38 states.

[Preon1]

Originally posted by Eagler
general welfare in the day this was crafted meant roads and bridges

how many unemployed ppl were spittin out kids, watching opra while collecting "general welfare" checks back then?

they are rolling over in their graves as you put these words in their mouths by distorting their meaning for your agenda ...

Right on.  The same goes for other American icons.  "Give me your tired, your poor, your hudled masses yearning to breathe free." doesn't mean that America intends to pay for the languishing of the refuse of the world.  It means that it provides the opportunity for them to make a life for themselves and expects them to do so.

[Rude]

Originally posted by banana
Well, then *we* had better do a better job of coming up with candidates who will stop wasting our money.

The American people have the power to change it. It's called the vote. But we struggle to get 40% to vote on election day. That is sad.

You're right....it's our fault....shame on us all.

We have allowed years of abuse to continue because we are lazy and selfish as a nation....as long as I have my 2.2 kids, the hot tub, the bigscreen tv and two German cars in the driveway...just do what ya have to, but don't mess with my own personal utopia.

We reap what we sow.

[ra]

We reap what we sow.

 I haven't reaped a sow in years!

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Rude
You're right....it's our fault....shame on us all.

We have allowed years of abuse to continue because we are lazy and selfish as a nation....as long as I have my 2.2 kids, the hot tub, the bigscreen tv and two German cars in the driveway...just do what ya have to, but don't mess with my own personal utopia.

We reap what we sow.

I dunno Rude, I do vote. It's still illegal to shoot politicians, right?