Author Topic: Now that Gore let the recount cat out of the bag, elections will never be the same.  (Read 1824 times)

Offline JBA

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They are already planing a recount in Ca. And the methods of voteing are already in question.



http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/10/03/state0351EDT0011.DTL&type=printable


Political activists are planning to scrutinize punch-card ballot results in California's historic recall election, raising the likelihood of a recount if the outcome is close.
But some computer scientists fear more trouble with electronic ballots. With almost one in 10 registered voters using touch-screen machines that don't automatically produce paper printouts, they say a legitimate recount would prove impossible.
County registrars and executives at the companies that sell and update the electronic voting machines say scientists' concerns are overblown and irresponsible.
None of the elections officials who supervise the 50,000 touch-screen machines serviced nationwide by Diebold Election Systems have reported glitches or hacks that have resulted in known miscounts or fraud, said Mark Radke, director of the voting industry division of North Canton, Ohio-based Diebold.
But David Dill, a computer science professor at Stanford University and a leading skeptic of touch-screen voting, is urging voters in the four counties using touch-screen terminals -- Alameda, Riverside, Shasta and Plumas -- to vote with absentee ballots, which use optical scan systems and provide paper ballots. He fears falsification or deletion of votes on touch-screen systems.
"You can't do a meaningful recount if the question is about the integrity of the voting machines themselves," Dill said.
According to a July study by Johns Hopkins and Rice universities, which analyzed Diebold source code that had been posted anonymously on the Internet, any clever hacker could break into Diebold's system, which is based on Microsoft Windows, and vote multiple times.
Researchers found it was theoretically possible to insert "back doors" into software code that would allow hackers -- or insiders -- to change future voters' choices and predetermine the outcome.
In the case of the California recall, Dill said, changing code in a voting machine could make every "no" vote be recorded as a "yes," or vice versa. Every vote for Republican state Sen. Tom McClintock could be recorded as a vote for Democratic Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante -- and without a paper record, the voter would never know.
Activists are demanding that ballot machine vendors include printers that produce paper receipts for every ballot, so citizens can confirm that paper results match their touch-screen choices. Receipts would go into a county lock-box for use in recounts.
If voters spot a problem, they could destroy the bad ballot and make sure they've voted properly before leaving the polling station, scientists say.
"It's horrifying and ridiculous that these machines don't have a voter-verifiable audit trail," said Rebecca Mercuri, a Harvard University research fellow who specializes in computer security and voting systems. "These four counties have taken the public's right to a re-count away."
Riverside County registrar of voters Mischelle Townsend said she had "total confidence" in the electronic system used by the county's 650,000 voters. On election day before the polls open, the county tests all 4,250 touch-screens for logic and accuracy, confirming that a "yes" vote is recorded as a "yes," Townsend emphasized.
"The candidates have been very pleased with all our results," said Townsend, who has supervised 19 touch-screen elections and five recounts since November 2000. "The machines have always been adjudicated to be reliable and accurate. There's never been a single incident of what the scientists fear."
Electronic voting advocates acknowledge no system is perfect but say touch-screens are better than older technology. A survey by CalTech and MIT found 6 percent of votes cast nationwide in the 2000 presidential election may not have been counted because of problems with antiquated systems.
Each touch-screen machine has an "integral thermal printer" -- the same technology handheld devices use to spit out credit card receipts. But in their current configurations, the printers cannot produce receipts for voters to verify at the polls.
After polls close, elections officials make another accuracy check. They get printouts for 1 percent of voters in every precinct, and compare the digital record with the printouts.
In some states, margins of less than 1 percent automatically trigger recounts. In California, a recount happens only when a candidate or party demands one.
In a standard recount, officials would simply add up again the results recorded digitally on the machines' memory cards. If a more intense hand recount is ordered, as sometimes happens when the results are extremely close or differ from expectations -- officials would print the digital image of every ballot cast, and count them by hand.
"It's in essence a hard copy of the ballot," Radke said.
But simply recounting printouts wouldn't catch votes that were improperly recorded because of software bugs, malicious hackers or other abuses, activists say.
"The only thing this process would show is if your printers were working," said Kim Alexander, president of the nonprofit watchdog group California Voter Foundation. "If the machines fail to capture ballots accurately to begin with, the printed images produced after polls close will only produce those erroneous records, and the voter is no longer around to correct it." .
The ACLU is watching closely for evidence of voter disenfranchisement, as is the California Democratic Party, which began soliciting $100,000 this week for a "No More Floridas!" campaign to scrutinize alleged violations.
The computer scientists will be watching as well, looking for statistical anomalies in touch-screen counties.
Threats of a recount worry election officials. Whoever requests the recount must pay for it, but the lengthy process could overlap with some county elections in early November.
"The very thought of a re-count -- it's chilling," said Alameda County assistant registrar Elaine Ginnold. "We're all hoping there will be a huge margin because a recount would plug things up for quite a while
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 11:30:28 AM by JBA »
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Offline Sandman

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Let me see if I understand correctly... the Florida recount was Gore's fault?
sand

Offline Stringer

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Yes, if he would have carried his home state, then FLA wouldn't have been an issue :p

Just as it hadn't been an issue in elections passed.

Offline AKIron

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If the recount didn't do it, the Democrats definitely opened Pandora's box in Texas when they ran off to avoid a vote, twice.
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Offline popeye

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Bev Harris has written a book, _Black Box Voting_, critical of touch screen voting machines.  The book was supposed to be released on Wednesday as a free pdf download.  However, it appears that the website has been shut down by the ISP over lawsuit threats by Diebold.
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

Offline JBA

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Let me see if I understand correctly... the Florida recount was Gore's fault?



YES
Gore brought the lawsuit, and asked for the State Supreme court to change the rules during/after an election. Bush asked for the courts to stop.
Fed. Supreme court stepped in and stopped the lower court from legislating from the bench. The end.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
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Offline AKIron

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I really can't see why we can't vote via the Internet. I know there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth whenever it's brought up. Rather than arguing technical feasibilty the objection seems to be that it would supposedly be unfair to the poor that have no computer or Internet connection.

How much easier would it be for them to go vote at a traditional booth or a library if there were no lines due to most voting at home? I suspect the true objection is that so many nonvoters would begin voting and there must be fear that the majority of them are relatively conservative.
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Offline Sandman

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I don't think this is true. Anytime there is a close election, there is a recount.
sand

Offline mietla

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Yes, the first two recounts were mandated by law and no one was questioning those. Both went to Bush. Then, an additional count of absentee ballots went to Bush as well.

It's only when the dems started manual and selective recounts (three libs in a closed room), the notion of "voter's intent, to hell with the holes actually punched" came up, and violations of recount deadlines the things started to go whacko.

Bush won day one.


Offline AKIron

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IIRC, it was Gore that sued when the Secretary of State announced the deadline as mandated by law would be upheld.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 02:38:27 PM by AKIron »
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Offline ra

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I don't think this is true. Anytime there is a close election, there is a recount.

Florida's election law required an automatic recount because of the close vote.  Gore lost that recount, and lawsuits followed as he tried to dislodge as many loose chads as possible.

Offline midnight Target

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You guys have been duped by the right wing controlled press.

The actual chain of events...


November 7: Election Day

November 8:Gore retracts the concession because Bush's margin of victory in Florida is slim enough to trigger an automatic recount under 102.141(4) of the Florida Election Code. The automatic recount further reduces the vote margin.

November 9: Manual recounts are requested by or on behalf of the Gore campaign under 102.166 in Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade, and Volusia counties.

November 11: Bush and several voters commence federal lawsuit (Siegel v. LePore) to halt manual recounts because of alleged equal protection and other constitutional violations.

November 12: Palm Beach County manual recount begins

November 13: U.S. District Judge Donald Middlebrooks rejects Bush's plea in Siegel for an order barring hand recounts of ballots.

November 14: Circuit Judge Terry Lewis rules in McDermott v. Harris that Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris may enforce a statutory 5 p.m. deadline for county reporting of returns, but that she may not arbitrarily refuse to include late-filed returns

November 15: After considering submissions from counties still conducting recounts, Secretary of State Harris indicates that she will not consider further returns from those counties.

November 17: On appeal, Florida Supreme Court prohibits Secretary Harris from certifying the election results - as she had planned to do November 18 - until further notice from the court. the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit refuses to block manual recounts in Broward and Palm Beach counties.

November 19: Miami-Dade County begins manual recount.

November 21: Florida Supreme Court rules that manual recounts may continue and that the totals must be included in the final results. Court sets November 26-27 as deadline for certifying the election.

November 22: Judge Jorge Labarga rules that so-called "dimpled chads" cannot be summarily excluded from the Palm Beach manual recount.

November 23: Miami-Dade County suspends its manual recount; Florida Supreme Court rejects Gore request to require resumption.

November 24: U.S. Supreme Court agrees to hear Bush's appeal on the legality of the Florida Supreme Court's decision to allow recounts and extend state deadline for certification.

November 26: Secretary Harris certifies election results, giving Bush a 537-vote victory over Gore. Governor Jeb Bush signs Certificate of Ascertainment designating 25 Florida electors pledged to George W. Bush and transmits to National Archives as required by Title 3, U.S. Code, Section 6.
see November 17th

November 27: Gore files election contest action under Election Code section 102.168, challenging vote counts in Palm Beach, Miami-Dade, and Nassau counties; case is assigned to Judge Sanders Sauls.

December 1: U.S. Supreme Court hears oral argument on Bush's appeal of November 21 Florida Supreme Court ruling

December 4: U.S. Supreme Court rules in Bush v. Palm Beach Canvassing Board, vacating order of Florida Supreme Court and remanding for clarification the Florida Supreme Court's November 21 decision on recount deadlines.

December 8: In 4-3 split decision, Florida Supreme Court rules for Gore, ordering a statewide manual recount of undervotes to begin and adding 383 votes to his total.

December 9: The Florida Supreme Court denies Bush's application for stay. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit in Atlanta similarly denies Bush's emergency motion to stop the recount, but orders Florida officials not to change his previously certified 537-vote lead. Minutes later, the U.S. Supreme Court, divided 5-4, issues a stay in Gore v. Bush to stop the manual recounts.

December 12: U.S. Supreme Court issues 5-4 decision in Gore v. Bush reversing Florida Supreme Court and ruling that manual recounts cannot be conducted in a constitutional manner in the time remaining.

December 13: Seeing no legal recourse from the U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Gore concedes.

Offline ra

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"November 9: Manual recounts are requested by or on behalf of the Gore campaign under 102.166 in
Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade, and Volusia counties. "

This shows what a tool Gore is.

And anyway, under what theoretical sequence of events could Gore have won a recount?

ra

Offline mietla

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How is it different from what I've said.

Offline midnight Target

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December 8: In 4-3 split decision, Florida Supreme Court rules for Gore, ordering a statewide manual recount of undervotes to begin and adding 383 votes to his total.

This is the decision the SC ruled against. Explain the Equal protection to me again please. Who were we protecting again? Certainly not the people of Fla. who may have undervoted.... shame on the SC.