Thoughts on how to make ack more realistic

[Rojo]

Most will agree that JABO attacks on ack or ack-protected locations is pretty much suicidal in AH right now. Asside from the obvious implementation of projectile drag and dispersion, what else needs to be fixed to make field ack more realistic?  My thoughts:

1) Surprise - There should be a delay in the ack-guns firing when aircraft approach in such a way as to mask that approach. A field's guns were not manned 24 hour/day, 7 days/wk, particularly in rear areas.  JABO accounts I've read indicate the first pass on a field was often relatively unopposed. Second passes usually were avoided, because the gunners all had time to man the guns. At the very least, ack-gunner accuracy should be lower for the first 30 seconds or so of an attack. There should likewise be some kind of accuracy penalty when switching targets.

2) Limited Ammo - only so much ammo was kept right at each gun, and guns had to be reloaded, no matter what type you're talking about. There should be a pause when each gun's magazine runs dry, and a longer pause when all the ready ammo is used up.  Also, taking out the ordnance bunker at a base (don't have one for ack guns right now, but should be added) should limit the guns to the ready ammunition.

3) Human gunner limitations - Gunners get stunned from very near missis, and often take cover out of fear. Their aim suffers when someone is firing at them (just like us cyber pilots sometimes react when we hear bullets ripping into our aircraft), or when firing into the sun. The gunners are also much more frail then the guns they serve. So a bomb may not land close enough to physically destroy the hardware, but the software (gunners) may be cut to ribbons or knocked out by the concussion. In that case, a gun may be effectively disabled for minutes, until a new gun crew can pull the dead from their seats and take their places.

Well, that's all I can think of for now. What are your thoughts/ideas?

Sabre (a.k.a. Rojo)

[This message has been edited by Rojo (edited 12-08-1999).]

[Hristo]

Good ideas !

However, Jabo flight must come below radar and must not be spotted by enemy planes to make surprise attack. Flying over enemy structures or city would surely warn all AAA in the area.

Still, after the Jabo approach is reported, there is an amount of time needed to alert the gunners, for them to prepare the guns etc. etc.

Also great idea of ack running out of ammo, at least temporary, until new belt is inserted or something else. How about those gun barrells overheating ?  

Also, ack needs some human limitations, not some cold blooded robot with no fear of death.

[buhdman]

rojo (sabre),

Great ideas.  I have also noticed that ack can instantaneously change its aim from one aircraft to another.  I was attacking an ack once along with another plane when this happened.  To begin with, the ack was shooting at a plane passing high overhead. As the other attacker got within range, ack instantaneously switched aim to that plane and shot it until it died.  I was approaching from the opposite direction and, again, instantaneously, it switched aim and began dissecting me.

Any simulation of ack ought to take into account the swing time of a gun and the time it takes to acquire the new target. When we get manned ack, we'll see this kind of delay for sure, but for "otto", the delay should be factored in somehow.

Thanks for your post.

buhdman, out

------------------
Walt (buhdman) Barrow
(formerly lt-buhd-lite)
home.earthlink.net/~wjbarrow

[Jekyll]

I've been a long-time supporter of the introduction of a delay for field ack.

Field ack is by default in an 'inactive state'.  Once the first fighter gets within ack range, there should be a 30 second delay before the ack is able to fire.  Once that 30 seconds is up, the ack goes into 'active mode', and will open up at any and all targets within range.

Once the jabo attack is over, the ack should remain in an active state for another 30 minutes, after which it reverts back to inactive and the whole process repeats itself.

Of course, you'd need to either fly in below radar to get the 30 second delay advantage, OR have previously knocked out the field radar and country radar/HQ.

[Thunder]

I think that there might be another reason. Maybe they just don't want Jabos bombing fields. Some fighters live to fly to a field, drop bombs,take out acks and then just vulch.
I think the strat models are designed to not make it too easy to walk acoss the board and slam the other teams nose in the dirt. They want you to do it the "Old Fashion Way!... they want you to "Earn It!)   Maybe they are trying to get both bombers and fighters Gruntwagoneers to work together. I bet they realized that field vulching in some sims was risen to rediculous levels by the Jabo Fighter attack. So... Ack Weenies to the rescue! I am sure as the sim goes along they will figure a better way to abate the addiction some have aquired to just pile up easy vulch kills.... Betcha Betcha!  

Thunder

[juzz]

Some ideas...

Maybe if it takes a LOT of bullets to kill acks, then fighters will be less effective against them. Make it so that acks won't fire for a little while (5-10 seconds) if they are hit by a certain amount of bullets/damage, to represent the gun crew taking cover or being injured. But to actually destroy the ack with guns will take so much ammo it wouldn't be worth it. Of course specialised ground attack guns would be able to(eg: 37mm on Il-2).

Also make it so Acks are "entrenched" (eg: inside a pile of sandbags/concrete bunker) and will only take serious gunfire damage at certain angles. Otherwise the bullets are stopped by the sandbags/concrete etc.

This would affect bombs and rockets too, since a near miss by a small explosive weapon would mean that little damage is taken, but a direct hit would do damage. A bigger bomb near miss would simply blow up the whole lot in one big "boom" though.

So basically the acks take damage in the following ways:
1. Stunned - the crew hides or is injured, gun stops firing for a short while.
2. Crew killed - the guns stops firing for a longer time, but human gunners can still jump in.
3. Gun destroyed - The whole lot is gone.

[Pongo]

Well the whole thing is unrealistic isn’t it...
The Flak has perfect field of view, unlimited ammo, unfailing morale, deadly accuracy(way better then a current radar guided unit), incredible resistance to direct cannon fire but silly susceptibility to HE near misses.
On the other side the buff can put dumb iron through a chimney from 32,000 ft. 12 bombs, 12 precision strikes. And BDA lets them know right away that it was successful.
The attacking fighters can see everything on an airfield from 5k feet. They know exactly where every gun is and the smoke from the flak even tells them to the foot how close it is safe to vulch. If something goes wrong they can land out of flak range beside the airfield and immediately teleport back to base.
The bad guys teleport in their shinny new planes to the end of the field and the good guys drop their flaps and line up for the kill. No one on the field shoots at them if their laser flak turrets are still being regenerated.
Once Grunts hit the ground they are very vulnerable to aircraft on the ground……Can any body picture what 10 Bar and Garrand armed troops would do to a spitfire wagging its tail towards them trying to hit them with its cannons?

And people complain about radar. Unrealistic they say.  Probably the most realistic non-flight model related facet of the game...

The purpose of this rant was to say that the little world that is AH has to work together. You cannot limit the flak without changing many other things in the game. Without stealth and numbers the flak will be too weak.
Suggestions…well
 I think that the something that could be done that would make the game more interesting would be to
have many more positions for flak on a field and regen in different spots each time.
Make the regen of flak a bit random in time and number.
Have rifle fire kick in at < 200 feet and <200 IAS over an airfield. Some thing that wouldn’t shoot at grunts but that makes the vultures respect the field more.

Turn off the icons on the grunts.(give them guns)

Maybe with changes like that you could limit the rate of fire and increase the vulnerability of the flak positions.