Blackout Woes

[Happy1]

Greetings 1 & All  

Have a wee bit of a dilemma, I've read everything I could find on
Stick Scaling, Blackouts, Spin prevention & compression, I find my
biggest problem at present is blacking out     I know, I know as
some of u experts would say be gentle on ur stick, don't pull so
many Gs, listen to the stall horn, fly on the edge  ... ALL very
sound advice, however, this is easier said than done especially if
U r a newbie & doing ur best to follow an nme, all the while keeping ur eyes on the bogey, ur speedometer, ur G-Meter &
hearing the stall horn PLUS watching ur 6, not easy in the heat of
battle!  
  On sustained turns or pullouts I invariably BLACKOUT
thusly presenting a very easy tgt for the pros as my screen goes Black.   Empirical study shows that over 5.5 Gs causes Blackouts,
thereby the simple solution is to pull LESS than (<=) 5.25 Gs.
How can this be accomplished in the heat of battle w/o concern
for blacking out, the answer seems 2b in Scaling ur stick properly.

Perchance pple who had previously flown in Airwarrior, Warbirds or other flitesims in "Full Realism" could provide us with an answer
, seemingly the lower the sensitivity the less blackouts, however, how low is low & at what end?  Front, middle or back, in which permutations, how about damping & deadbands? I've a cogent theory on the subject matter but unconfirmed as yet, the question being How to program ur stick so that the maximum Gs
1 pulls is less than 5.5 Gs?

I invite ur input to solve this puzzle, in RL pilots have G suits to help counter the negativity, I believe that the answer to 'sims
flite is in the stick scales.   Ur assistance to this query is invited.
TY 4 ur time & patience  

Cheers,

Happy1  

[Roscoroo]

Hey Happy , Ive done all the sims in full realism mode and they all black/red out .. its having to get used to pulling the stick hard til the black out starts closing in, then releasing the stick ... let it off far enough to come out of black out ...

[Ghosth]

Tip

Turn engine sound down to 50%, max wind sound up all the way.

Forget watching that speed gauge when in the middle of a fight. You'll soon learn by the sound of the wind or lack of it roughly where your speed is.

As to blackouts, pull into the "tunnel" then ease just a little. You'll find you can still crank around pretty tight yet keep an eye on the bogey in your up/forward views.

Like everything else it just takes time & experience.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Happy1
Have a wee bit of a dilemma, I've read everything I could find on
Stick Scaling, Blackouts, Spin prevention & compression, I find my
biggest problem at present is blacking out     I know, I know as
some of u experts would say be gentle on ur stick, don't pull so
many Gs, listen to the stall horn, fly on the edge  ... ALL very
sound advice, however, this is easier said than done especially if
U r a newbie & doing ur best to follow an nme, all the while keeping ur eyes on the bogey, ur speedometer, ur G-Meter &
hearing the stall horn PLUS watching ur 6, not easy in the heat of
battle!  
  On sustained turns or pullouts I invariably BLACKOUT
thusly presenting a very easy tgt for the pros as my screen goes Black.   Empirical study shows that over 5.5 Gs causes Blackouts,
thereby the simple solution is to pull LESS than (<=) 5.25 Gs.
How can this be accomplished in the heat of battle w/o concern
for blacking out, the answer seems 2b in Scaling ur stick properly.

I dont know what expert has told you to be easy on the stick,  "dont pull so many G's, etc etc,  but i as a player since October of 2000,  can say those are all wrong.  First of all,  i hate that stall buzzer so i replaced it with the Mitsu's stall horn sound "swoosh one"..   Second,  if you wish to see my stick scalings i can post em, and you can give em a try.  Thirdly, in every fight that i fight,  i try to pull more G's then the next guy ( harder turn = better chance to get on his 6)..  Some consequences do come with this,  like losing lots of E,  but its a chance that im willing to take.  Fourthly,  i rarely rarely EVER look at the cockpit instruments,  (too busy with keeping my eye on the con).  

And last but not least,  the trick to fighting while your blacked out is to know how every pilot flies,  what i mean by this is when i go into a merge,  nose to nose,  i pull REALLY hard on the merge,  (hence it causes a MAJOR blackout) and when i get on the top i use my views to find him,  the faster i find him the faster i will know what my next move will be.  And to be able to know where a con is going to be,  takes alot of flight time,  which will come in time  

If you have any questions,  Email is in the Sig.

[BigMax]

I'd have to agree with WT....

The trick is to learn how to time being in "the black" and when to go into it.

[[[Analogy]]]
Any Skiiers?
Everyone tells you to learn by "snow plowing", yet no self respecting skiier would be caught dead doing it...
{Snow Plow is skiing with your tip very close together & the backs very wide}  It gets you out there and standing, but is useless after your first hour standing up.  Same with the "be gentle" advice.. It will get you up, but will also get you killed.  Riding the edge is what we do, you just need to learn how to find it.

Anyway,
Go to the TA & practice...  If you can't stay in "controlled flight", dog-fighting is out of the question.

Hope this helps... My email is at the bottom.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by BigMax
Riding the edge is what we do, you just need to learn how to find it.

Exactly.. Takes time,  like anything

[Innominate]

You don't need to pull more G's than your opponent if you slow down just a little bit.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Innominate
You don't need to pull more G's than your opponent if you slow down just a little bit.

Apparently what i do seems to work..

[bockko]

innominate makes a very good point. If you need to cut inside of someone to make a shot easing the throttle back helps alot. You trade speed for reduced turn radius. Full throttle isn't always the best answer. Another thing is don't make all of your turns flat. If you are very fast compared to your target as your target starts a turn you may want to pull up instead of into him, then roll over and pull down onto him as he finishes his turn. You save your e, he burns more, and you can reenter pretty much at will.

It is pretty tough to say exactly what to do as there are so many variables, so while wldthng likes to pull hard and innominate doesn't, to each his own. In some planes pulling hard work great where in others you burn your e so fast it hurts.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by bockko
innominate makes a very good point. If you need to cut inside of someone to make a shot easing the throttle back helps alot. You trade speed for reduced turn radius. Full throttle isn't always the best answer. Another thing is don't make all of your turns flat. If you are very fast compared to your target as your target starts a turn you may want to pull up instead of into him, then roll over and pull down onto him as he finishes his turn. You save your e, he burns more, and you can reenter pretty much at will.

It is pretty tough to say exactly what to do as there are so many variables, so while wldthng likes to pull hard and innominate doesn't, to each his own. In some planes pulling hard work great where in others you burn your e so fast it hurts.

Using throttle control with pulling many G's many times equal a win over a con for me,  i like to pull hard since im an agressive pilot,  dont like to take it easy with any con,  since usually there is another con lurking nearby..

Every pilot likes to fly his own way,  thats what makes us unique..

[Innominate]

Don't misunderstand me, I still pull well into blackout, I just slow down as well to get that kill a little bit faster.

[BigMax]

Yep!

Throttle & rudder are important too...

But it is really one and the same... ACM is a combination of all, throw in a lil gunnery, and it's chicken soup!

[Shane]

and ur all wet noodles.

[humble]

Happy,

blackouts are simply a part of the game, the key is to use some common sense. If your on the offensive your real goal is to set up a rear quarter "tracking" shot...realistically you can do that by flying lag pursuit (nose pointed behind enemy) and managing E by flying to the low or high wing (see Steve Bushs stuff). If your constantly blacking out while on the offensive I'd question your tactics and understanding of BFM utilization. On defense blackouts are often your best friend...if your on edge of a blackout...so is the guy on your 6...One favorite move for many is to enter a nose low turn and slowly "tighten" it up to the edge of blackout...the back of throttle and watch bogie try and push nose ahead for shot...then pullenough to blackout and roll back 90 degrees other way and up...lot of the time your blacked out foe has continued his nose down path looking for the shot and now you have angles and potential E on him...

I'll try and put wldthings comments in a different perspective (I agree with him BTW)...basically what he's saying is that all things being equal (obviously he's a smart stick) he's a pure angles fighter...meaning he'll sacrifice E for a positional advantage then trust his ability and understanding of ACM to "hang on" till you die. His predisposition enables him to act quickly and gives him an advantage in a key area OOPA (observe, orient, decide, act). He's going to "get ahead of you"....then apply pressure till you messup and he kills you. The interesting part is that after the initial blackout I'd bet he's actually flying the fight from an angles and positional advantage...put in with an energy disadvantage...if he's inside the gun envelope...a bogie with E is at a double disadvantage: He has excess speed which increases wldthings turn envelope and his speed eliminates the possibility of excess closure...so a bogie's evasives are less effective...whats funny here is I'd bet that 75% of the time wldthing doesnt have a solid shot when he reaqquires after blackout...but the bogie either 1) reaqquires vis late and allows continued closure 2) is behind far enough in the OOPA loop that he's "thinking" 3) goes defensive simply because of wldthings positional advantage...assuming a co-e merge and relatively even energy bleed any "long merge" would leave wldthing sucking wind hung out .8-1.0 under the bogie....since he's already looking to read and react I'd bet he's got 3-4 "game plans" for exactly that event...of course the only time I ever run into wldthing he's got 5k on me and bounces my prettythang while I'm otherwise occupied:eek:

[WldThing]

Originally posted by humble

whats funny here is I'd bet that 75% of the time wldthing doesnt have a solid shot when he reaqquires after blackout...but the bogie either 1) reaqquires vis late and allows continued closure 2) is behind far enough in the OOPA loop that he's "thinking" 3) goes defensive simply because of wldthings positional advantage...assuming a co-e merge and relatively even energy bleed any "long merge" would leave wldthing sucking wind hung out .8-1.0 under the bogie....since he's already looking to read and react I'd bet he's got 3-4 "game plans" for exactly that event...of course the only time I ever run into wldthing he's got 5k on me and bounces my prettythang while I'm otherwise occupied:eek:

Gotta say its the other way around,  75% of the time i DO have a shot after i come out of a blackout..  And as you stated above i wait for the guy to make a mistake,  which almost every does at one point or another in a fight.  

And humble.. MA tactics are different than DA tactics for me,  DA style goes into play if im alone with a guy in the MA.. But other than that i try to stay alive, since i really wouldnt try turning a P-51 with anything other than,  F4U's, Typhoons, La7's, P-47's, 190's, 109's, P-38's, and of course P-51's..

When im in the mood i'll grab a spit and get down and dirty,  but when i feel like havin a slow night,  my main ride comes into play,  i'll try to find a film of me fighting in a spit.  Dont know if you can see blackouts in film,  but i'll give it a shot.