Author Topic: body armor for troops in Iraq (Read 1020 times)

loser · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:31:08 PM »

First off. All respect and thanks to coallition troops in the Middle East.

But aren't most US soldiers being killed or injured my RPGs or mines? Seems all i hear about is WIA and KIA by explosive devices. So ceramic vests wouldnt really help or they may even cause more casualties.

By my very weak understanding of the weapons being used a tradtional Vietnam gel vest would almost provide more protection. Correct me if I'm wrong.

crabofix · « **Reply #16 on:** October 15, 2003, 12:11:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by loser

By my very weak understanding of the weapons being used a tradtional Vietnam gel vest would almost provide more protection. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct.
As I said, unmobilety in a class 4 west is not the best, especiallt not in the heat.
Schrapnel and blast.

By the way, have you ever shoot a "deer" (we have smaller deers here then US) with a shootgun, say number 3 load range 30 yards. They die instantly, not mant bbs penetrate even the skinn, their heart stops from the shock.

anonymous · « **Reply #17 on:** October 15, 2003, 01:14:24 AM »

saying that dudes are getting killed most by explosions is showing that plates are doing the job. guys are getting hit by 7.62x39 and plates are saving them. some dude getting killed makes the evening news but a plate saving his life wont.

mrblack · « **Reply #18 on:** October 15, 2003, 01:14:29 AM »

I dont give a dam what it cost!!
Our people over there deserve the best they can get!
And we aint giving it to them.
And that my friends Is BULLCHIT:mad:

crabofix · « **Reply #19 on:** October 15, 2003, 01:36:47 AM »

Personally I think that anyone sugesting that the US troops are´nt getting the best, most durrable stuff, because of money, is way out of line. I admire the US troops equiptment and the organization around them. Keeping the troops alive seam to be the most important thing. When I did basic training, the word was: "in combat, you guys will live statisticly about 10 sec" a very incuraging statement.

There could be other reasons, like because they need do be mobile.
Have anyone used a Class 4 west with amoured plates during excercises or combat? It is a very heavy piece to wear in 120 farenheit. How fast would you do that 100 meter dash, in 2min?

loser · « **Reply #20 on:** October 15, 2003, 02:04:40 AM »

crabofix, i wasn't sure but thanks.

You are hereby invited to hunt Canuck Deer in my Province. The bucks at 3 years old weigh 120 KGs at least. 8 regular points at one side. But you sure cant use a SG.

unless you hunt early

.273 is the only humane way to go, center mass. .300 or .308 winchester cause shock or lung collapse. Suffucation is not deserved on anything. (Im severely cholostrophobic)

crabofix · « **Reply #21 on:** October 15, 2003, 02:29:03 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by loser
crabofix, i wasn't sure but thanks.

You are hereby invited to hunt Canuck Deer in my Province. The bucks at 3 years old weigh 120 KGs at least. 8 regular points at one side. But you sure cant use a SG.

unless you hunt early

.273 is the only humane way to go, center mass. .300 or .308 winchester cause shock or lung collapse. Suffucation is not deserved on anything. (Im severely cholostrophobic)

Yes, .273 sounds like a nice and must be pretty flatshooting. Not to diffrent from our 6,5x55 (.243?). We use this for Elk and Moose.
All though the 30-06 is a widely popular caliber, infact the most popular for the Moose.
The 300, 338 wm is way to powerful and nasty to shoot. 5.56 way to fragile (.223), 308, does´nt really "cut" it.

The "deers" here get around 50 to 70 KGs, what we actully call deer is what you guys call Elk. We call the "moose" Elk.
and thanks for the inventation loser

Masherbrum · « **Reply #22 on:** October 15, 2003, 07:59:05 AM »

What's the point of wearing it when a head shot kills you? Cops are one thing, but this is totally different.

Karaya

Erlkonig · « **Reply #23 on:** October 15, 2003, 08:11:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
What's the point of wearing it when a head shot kills you? Cops are one thing, but this is totally different.

Karaya

Should I stop wearing a seatbelt because I might die of heart disease later in life?

_Schadenfreude_ · « **Reply #24 on:** October 15, 2003, 02:31:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
What's the point of wearing it when a head shot kills you? Cops are one thing, but this is totally different.

Karaya

80% of combat wounds are to the arms and legs

10% are to the head

90% of all fatalaties in combat are due to head wounds

most injuries are caused by blast and shrap - very few people actually get shot

If I had a choice and I was in a hot dry environment I'd take body armour with a basic ability to stop 9mm - with the option of ceramic plates for assault or guard duties which would be removable.

I'd want a very, very good helmet.

I served in Angola in the early 80's - we had just got kevlar helmets and no-one even thought about body armour.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #25 on:** October 15, 2003, 04:45:17 PM »

An AK-47 round is a hell of a lot different than a 9mm.

Karaya

crabofix · « **Reply #26 on:** October 15, 2003, 10:12:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
An AK-47 round is a hell of a lot different than a 9mm.

Karaya

A class 2 Body armour is a hell of a less burdon then a class 4.

NUKE · « **Reply #27 on:** October 15, 2003, 11:08:28 PM »

Maybe a little off topic, but:

Doesnt the AK-47 and the SKS use the same round?

Somone was posting in another thread that the SKS was barely able to take down a deer or something. The one I have ( Russian circa 1954) will put rounds through lots of things I never would have thought it could....Like tree trunks and heavy steel from car parts.

crabofix · « **Reply #28 on:** October 16, 2003, 01:11:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by NUKE
Maybe a little off topic, but:

Doesnt the AK-47 and the SKS use the same round?

Somone was posting in another thread that the SKS was barely able to take down a deer or something. The one I have ( Russian circa 1954) will put rounds through lots of things I never would have thought it could....Like tree trunks and heavy steel from car parts.

The russian 7,62x 39 is a copy of the German 7,92x33 and Is a powerful round at short range.

The rumours about certain rounds "Hoax" are many and I can tell you one.

The Swedish armyversion of 9mm parabellum, m39/B,Has a little lighter bullet and a "harder" bullet and is loaded a little hotter then the original.
The "hoax" is that it wont penetrate heavy winterclothing at 300 yards. Yet, this round put the whole world of Bodyarmour upside down. So Body armour class 2 would stand for a .357 and a .44, it would stop the 9 mm Para. as well. Because af the harder "core" and speed the same Bodyarmour wont stop the 9mm 39/B.

In the tests with the Class 4 Russian bodyarmour, it would make a dent in the steelplate, while the 9mm para would just "splat" away the paint (20 yards, fired from a submachinegun with 22cm length of barrel(8.34 inch)). It would penetrate the class 2 vest, enter the "body" about 5cm, while the 9mm Para, would be "caught" and stopped without entering the "body".
(The tests was contucted with the use of big "soapbar" to act as "the body".
It is not 100% accurate, because the body of a human is not as compact as a bar of soap and it is also filled with bones.
Maybe a Pig would have been a better alternative to the "soapbar").
Non of the bullets would penetrate the class 3 vest.

The 7,62x39 would only be stopped by the class 4 vest. Both the Russian and US manufactured vest would stop it (armourplated).
THe weapon used was a AKM, it has a shorter barrellength then the SKS, about 10 cm shorter.

The 7,62x51 Nato, would also be stopped by both type of vests.
Wepon used: G3
The 30-06 would go straight trough the US manufactured class 4 vest after shattering the Plate, but only make a dent into the Russian steelplate.
Weapon used: FN Fal HB
The Russian 7,62x54 R, would perform about the same as the 30-06.
Weapon used: Dragonuv SVD
The 7,92x57 mauser would do the same thing.
Weapon used M76 (yugo sniperrifle)

Other weapons in the test, variuose calibers, diff. barreltwists: Ak74, Ak74SU, M16, AK-5, Stechin( 9mm makarov), ppsh(7,62 tokarev), Zastava (.357mag), Desert eagle (.357mag,.44mag), M1911a1 (.45 acp), Mp5, m45/B, m37/39 (9mm para, 39/B)
FN MAG, MG3A1, HK21, M1919a1 (7,62x55 Nato, 30-06)

Much to my suprise: the machineguns had a less penatration then the fulllength sniperrifles: Dragunov, M76, Parker/hale M85, M40A1. Never really thought about the change in barrellength.
(though the machineguns where fired only with 1 round at the time. A second hit in the Russian armourplate would penetrate it In all 7,62 calibers, except 7,62x39).

After theese field tests, the Russian vest was sent to a German for to give it a "classification" and to be tested in a labratory controlled inviroment. It filled the UN needs of beeing able to stop 7,92x57 Mauser and the 7,62x54 R

My question is: Why make Bodyarmour that stops Nato ammo, but cant stop Warzawapact ammo? (7,62x54R is still the main machinegunround both in Yugoslavia, china, northkorea, Iraq, Russia, Afganistan and in many African countries. Due to the cheap manufacture and cheap sales of russian weaponary).