Author Topic: The Pledge of Allegiance... (Read 1169 times)

SOB · « **Reply #45 on:** October 15, 2003, 08:29:39 PM »

Who exactly is "they"?

Drunky · « **Reply #46 on:** October 15, 2003, 10:35:36 PM »

SOB, Miko and Animal

I don't understand who scarred you but jeez...does having "under God" in the pledge upset you that much?

Whether it was originally in the pledge or not, God was part of the founding of this country. Would you expect any Middle East country to freely give up their Islamic religion throughout their government just because there are those who don't subscribe to that religion?

I guess next we should eliminate George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, etc from holidays, history books, conversation, and thoughts since they were Christains? We don't want to discriminate, now do we? All religions are equal and tolerated?

If you deny any part of the history of this country then you are denying the whole. The removal of part of the tapestry that created this country is the unraveling of it. The founders asked for support from God (the Christain God)...get used to it.

If you don't like, believe or approve of the Christain God isn't the problem. It's the belief of the founders in this God that affords the freedom to us to choose our own religion. Even if you are of a different religion you should at least respect the religion that allows you a country that gives you the freedom to worship as you do (never mind all the other freedoms.)

I'm not an extremely religious person. I don't go to church. I don't read the bible every day. I certainly don't pray everyday. That being said, I do respect the fact that the U.S. was founded with the help of Christianity and support the rememberence of it in our country.

My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.

Sandman · « **Reply #47 on:** October 15, 2003, 10:42:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Drunky

My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.

This veteran is one of those "spoiled children".

Rude · « **Reply #48 on:** October 15, 2003, 10:54:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Animal
Nothing different from what I say here.

What makes you think those who disagree with you will be afraid to speak their mind to your face?

Afraid? Wasn't considering that....was thinking of how intense discussions would be in person rather than what is lost in the translation on these boards.

midnight Target · « **Reply #49 on:** October 15, 2003, 11:22:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Drunky
SOB, Miko and Animal

snip...
If you deny any part of the history of this country then you are denying the whole.
sniop...
My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.

Those who fight to maintain a State religion are the ones who have forgotten the words of our founding fathers...

You have forgotten your history sir, or never knew it.

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As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion--as it has itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims], ... ("Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between The United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary," 1796-1797.

- This treaty was signed by John Adams BTW.

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Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever? (James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance," addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785;

and they knew that the 'majority rule' was a dangerous thing when it came to individual freedoms...

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Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the constituents. (James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, October 17, 1788;

SOB · « **Reply #50 on:** October 16, 2003, 01:01:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Drunky
SOB, Miko and Animal

I don't understand who scarred you but jeez...does having "under God" in the pledge upset you that much?

If you read my last post on the subject, which apparently you must have missed, you'd see that it doesn't upset me that much. I simply don't agree with it, and I'm expressing my opinion on the subject...a fact that I also made abundantly clear.

Quote

Originally posted by Drunky
Whether it was originally in the pledge or not, God was part of the founding of this country. Would you expect any Middle East country to freely give up their Islamic religion throughout their government just because there are those who don't subscribe to that religion?

No, I wouldn't expect or care what they do in their government. Of course, their government has nothing at all to do with the U.S. government or our constitution or our founding fathers. In other words, they aren't relevant to this discussion.

Quote

Originally posted by Drunky
I guess next we should eliminate George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, etc from holidays, history books, conversation, and thoughts since they were Christains? We don't want to discriminate, now do we? All religions are equal and tolerated?

If you deny any part of the history of this country then you are denying the whole. The removal of part of the tapestry that created this country is the unraveling of it. The founders asked for support from God (the Christain God)...get used to it.

Are you drunk? What in the hell are you babbling about? You think we should stop teaching US history if we remove "Under God" from the pledge because some of it might have to do with religion or the people in it might be of a certain denomination? Seriously...are you drunk?

Denying a part of history, eh? How about the part of history where the pledge didn't have the words "Under God" in it. Are you saying it's OK to ignore that part of history? Well, I guess that's a rhetorical question, because you already stated it is OK to ignore that part of history. And really, ARE you drunk?...you think the U.S. government is going to crumble if we remove these two words from the pledge, that weren't originally there? How about this...if they felt we should follow God, the Christian one, why don't we just throw out the constitution all together and just use the bible as our law?

Quote

Originally posted by Drunky
My opinion of those who fight to remove it from our country is that of spoiled children who do not understand or appreciate the contribution that has been given unto us for our own personal freedom. Sort of like those who served in the military to protect the rights of freedom of speech to those who use it against the military.

Why does the expression of my opinion upset you so much that you'd resort to calling me a "spoiled child"? Your entire post demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the ideals this country was founded on. The freedom to practice whatever religion you choose is alive and well. Why the government needs to support any or all of them is something you haven't managed to explain yet.

Leslie · « **Reply #51 on:** October 16, 2003, 02:14:15 AM »

I support the Pledge of Allegiance the way it is now. Don't see any need to change it because of a lawsuit. But it probably is best that the Supreme Court hear the case and settle the matter.

I attended a liberal arts college, and one of my friends was a liberal professor there. He claimed to be a card carrying member of the ACLU. One thing he said stuck in my mind when he was talking about Cuba. He wondered why Castro and the communist government was afraid to allow free and open expression of religion there. And he questioned why they were afraid of it.

Though he may have been somewhat religious (he was a recovered alcoholic), he was from the Dominican Republic and knowledgeable about Hispanic customs and thinking. He honestly couldn't understand the fuss, and seemingly fear, of acknowledging God in a civilized society. In his words, "What are they afraid of, to allow free expression, acknowledgement and worship of God?" It didn't make sense to him.

I majored in Spanish, and this was the best professor I had in that curriculum. LOL, he said he didn't support NPR or its local station, because they weren't liberal enough.

Les

Drunky · « **Reply #52 on:** October 16, 2003, 07:26:17 AM »

SOB,

Yes I was drunk. Very drunk. Didn't even remember making that post actually. But that is a typical night. Amazing I spelled everything right and my use of syntax was correct.

Anyway...looks like I managed to stir up a few people tho

miko2d · « **Reply #53 on:** October 16, 2003, 08:30:16 AM »

Drunky: SOB, Miko and Animal

I don't understand who scarred you but jeez...does having "under God" in the pledge upset you that much?
Whether it was originally in the pledge or not, God was part of the founding of this country...

I can't answer for others but there are two things that concern me.

First, being an atheist, I do not want my child to be religiously indoctrinated by the state before he develops the faculty of critical thinking. Yes, the plege is simplistic and brief - but so are children's minds. You would not be affected by it but a child may be. I saw plenty of such cases.

Second, as a supporter of religious judeo-christian society, I do not want the State to take over religion.

So I am not trying to deny the religious history of this country or make this country atheist - I am trying to preserve it. I am not trying to remove religion from this country - quite the opposite, I am trying to preserve it.

State takes over and destroys everything it tries to help - marriage, culture, drugs, retirement, economy, etc. You may be blind to the danger it poses to religion and attack my view as if I am against religion rather than for it. You are mistaken.

miko