squad ops..

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by ViFF
Gremlin & CM team, I completely disagree and am with 308Sqn on this one. Being too high while trying to protect a target from low level jabos is bad. Because of the short icon range they can get in and out without you ever knowing they were there.

By the time you see a field flashing the jabos are already on top of it releasing bombs, compression issues don't allow you to dive down quick enough to engage them, and by the time your down they are already on the way out of the field.

and imho there is nothing wrong with "alt monkeying".

Viff,  glad to  be reading some constructive input on this thread makes a refreshing change Sir.

I agree there is nothing wrong with alt monkeying, its a noble art ,I mean I do it for a living in the MA:D  But even without an alt limit there is nothing to stop the jabos going in at 12k anyway and be in and out as youy say before you even know they are there.  Without an alt restriction your defenders just have further to dive to meet them. I just think the alt limit kept everyone on their toes a bit more and when the engagements happened they were fought more evenly.  The first engagement I was involved in in frame 3 was with a bunch of your 109s and 190s.  I have no doubt that they would have preferred to have a good alt advantage before engaging?  But where would that have left heavy tempests and tiffies?  I suggest it would have left em with an early exit. It is just my opinion that the 12k alt restriction kept it all a bit sharper and gave jabo rides a fairer chance.  You think differently and I respect your opinion too:)

Remember when a few of your guys came up against our tempests at the end of frame 3??  That 5 minutes was the best 5 squad ops minutes I ever had.  Thats what its about IMHO, historical planesets meeting up in a historical setting.  Ill never forget, at the end of frame 3, trying to dump my tempie down on the field just after I ran outta gas with your 262 harrassing me and my other squaddie.  That really had the adreniline flowing freely.

Hope you and your squad continue to enjoy SSOs, despite the best efforts of one or two detractors.

[lucull]

Originally posted by Gremlin
You think differently and I respect your opinion too:)

Can I request that too?

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by lucull
I want to add one thing to what Viff said. You can't make a Jabo attack coming in on the target from 30k for many reasons. You will loose people overspeeding in dive, you have to descend over (which is bad for surprise attacks) or in front of the target (which is a good tactic, but you would never climb with heavies to 30k.
Nobody is able to defend without a significant alt or speed advantage. You get also the scenario Viff desribed of incoming jabos, destroying everything in a fast attack and running home. Of course, that's the way to make it succesfully, but the defenders need a realistic chance, uh?

You know something Lucull?  *that* is the first constructive point you have made in the entire thread.  You see constructive input is welcome but all you have managed to do up to now,  is detract from the event with unsustainable argument and then when your argument is countered you take to pasting CMs who would dare to disagree with you.

Let me clear something up for you.  The responsibility for developing the new events server has fallen to me.  Only in the last 2-3months have we had the facility (given to us by HTC) to develop a new centralised web site with the ability to take a lot of the drudgery out of the admin type work out of SO's in general.  I have spent pretty much 60% of my non-working time to get this up and running, but what we are talking here is a lot more than just SO's.  It is a whole new website which will take in all of special events and give the CMs the tools they need.  If will be around Christmas before its fully complete. If you cant wait until then I suggest you get out some web coding books and muck in:)

I'm not going to even begin to get into detail re-your last post because it wouldnt serve you me or SOs for me to do so so I'll just leave it there.

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by lucull
Can I request that too?

Well lets look at your initial post again.

Originally posted by lucull
- 11 Tempests and 9 Spit14.[/B]

I think we both fairly agreed that that just didnt happen.

Originally posted by lucull
- Enemy contact after 5min.
[/B]

If that wasnt the fault of those players who decided (as they are quite entitled to do) to breeze off to the MA, then whos fault is it?  Is it Skymans fault for starting the event as soon as it was possible?  Would you say it would have been fair to keep the 90% of players who were happy to wait in the SEA, waiting longer until those other players were quite ready to start?

Originally posted by lucull
- CiC job assigned to a squad that didn't participate.[/B]

Well should that be taken up with the squad concerned.  It is not an issue that the SO team can control is it?

Originally posted by lucull
- 10k alt restriction[/B]

Isnt it true that *that* point is the only real point in all of this which is truly worthy of lenghty discussion.

Originally posted by lucull
- no email contacts in orders for the CiC
- no numbers in the orders
- no front line in orders (that I got for frame 2)
- again MAG33 switched for balancing
[/B]

These are just admin issues they are just issues with individuals and the way they do things, it doesnt reflect on this particular SSO does it?

Originally posted by lucull
After 20min of event time, many people were flying in the MA and discussing how much they "enjoyed" this event.
[/B]

You see you are saying that this SSO was no fun but you dont substantiate your argument.

stuff like;

Originally posted by lucull
Dear CM team,

please, you said you want to take care about SSO and bring it back to old strenght and player numbers, so that we all could have more fun (again). You didn't show that in the last series, but I hope you'll do in the next.

Regards
[/B]

only serves to aggreive.

May I also point out that this;

Originally posted by lucull
I disagree. Frankly, your attitude is one of the problems SSO has.
[/B]

is way out of line.  Flossy has shown nothing but the mark of the lady she is. She gives you respect by explaining in a nice fair manner, her opinions.

Lucull, 308Sqn is a very important part of not just SSO but also special events in general.  That is the way I'd like to see it continue.  May I now suggest that we all agree to differ and make a committment that we will all do our best to work together to get SSOs back to where they belong?  I certainly dont want you see you or ramzey leave.  Fer God sake how else am I gonna get me some handy kills:D

[lucull]

Now, I don't know if you don't want to or you can't argue with me about my points I brought up. I think, I have some valuable points. Of course, it's my opinion, otherwise I wouldn't bring them up.

How many times have I said now, that I don't think that the nonexistence of such a webpage is a big problem in SSO???
Didn't I also say repeatingly, that all I would appreciate is something like this:

Allied FRAME CiC:
Warloc, 880th
 
Note: Please confirm that you are able, or one in your squad is able to be the CiC for this frame. Warloc your opponet will be Smuz/APdrone of AirMageddon.
 
 
ALLIED SQUADS
04-06 = 308 (Polish) Squadron (City of Cracow) (ramzey@raf303.org, lucull@raf303.org)
07-10 = 332nd Viking Squadron (GA@332viking.no, Easykill@332viking.no)
07-10 = 880 Squadron Fleet Air Arm (glenbold@telus.net, tfumia1@rochester.rr.com)
07-10 = 101"RED" Sqn, ISRAEL (viff@101squadron.com, joffefam@barak-online.net)
04-06 = skull12 20th military CO (CO skull12 swa2467@hotmail.com / renoairvirtual@yahoo.com ,
panzer66 bigevil_mohaa@yahoo.com)
 
28-42 Range of pilot turnout

Ghostdancer could do it and I think Grayarea could use this format, too. That's nearly half of what I complain together with the next point.
And you tell, that is no valuable point?

Low furball after 5min in squad ops and not likeing this what I call "MA style" and being vulched otr after a delay of 25min is no valuable point?

Disliking squads switching sides for number balancing is not a valuable point?
(it's a way to balance, but I explained why I think another way would be better IMO)

And the CiC job being assigned to a squad which is not participating, which almost leaded to cancel this SSO frame, if Viff wouldn't have take the job in the last minute, is not a valuable point?

Come on. Are you such an ignorant or am I totally wrong and need some help?
Well, you don't like to tell me, maybe someone else?

[lucull]

Posted at same time like you.

[lucull]

Mostly I complain about admin issues and those are in admin's hand and easy to change and just to make that clear again, that is my opinion!

I didn't attack flossy at all, therefor it's not out of hand. You see, more than half of what I didn't like was IMO caused by setup and not enough care on CM side.
That's of course my personnal opinion and that's why I reminded the CM team of their own words, because my points  being solved is more work for the admin CM.

Close targets, with 10k alt restriction and fast planes leads to low alt fights/furball in 5min as we have seen.
Don't get me wrong, I also like to furball and you can have some pretty good fights like that, but IMO it shouldn't be like this in the SEA and it's of course up to the admin CM to prevend or goal for this.

Of course you are right, that coming back late form the MA caused the vulch party for some people, but should "only" 5min cause this. I say no.

[Swoop]

Lucull,

I think there's something you need to understand:   CMs certainly do not dislike discussing events, we encourage it.  However, since we're all unpaid volunteers we fail to see why any of us should have to put up with disrespectful and insulting players such as yourself.

I used to think it was all down to a language barrier but after comments like:

"Come on. Are you such an ignorant or am I totally wrong and need some help?"

&

"Frankly, your attitude is one of the problems SSO has."


Well, frankly, if you think for a second that telling the head CM that she has an attitude problem isn't disrespectful then you're not only whiner but you're also an idiot.  No, it's you that has the attitude problem pal.

We also don't have the "shut up whiners, feel free to leave" attitude you think we do.  Next time you want to discuss something with your boss try insulting him first and then see how open he is to your suggestions.

Or is it merely that you just don't realise quite how insulting some of your posts can be?

[lucull]

Let me say that last thing:

I care a lot about SSO because I love historical based events. That's why I spend my time on thinking about what went wrong and how it could be done better. As you see, I stand for my points on this BB. If this is not appreciated and more it's forbidden, I will leave at the moment it is written.
This has nothing to do with having everything in an event like I want it to be, but the ignorance it would represent, but
I don't think this will happen.

As you can see in my post, I treat my "opponents" with respect and always try to keep it on a constructive level and I demand the same from every who wants to discuss with me.
It's this "treat others like you want to be treated" thingie.

[Swoop]

Originally posted by lucull
"treat others like you want to be treated"  

Ha!


Ok this is good.  Flossy wakes up on her 50th birthday to find a German fella telling her she has an attitude problem.


When's your birthday Lucull?

[lucull]

Originally posted by Swoop
Lucull,

I think there's something you need to understand:   CMs certainly do not dislike discussing events, we encourage it.  However, since we're all unpaid volunteers we fail to see why any of us should have to put up with disrespectful and insulting players such as yourself.

I count 6 CMs posting at least one time in this thread and of course you are unpaid volunteers who have to deal with paying players. Sure I don't pay my money for the events, but your work is honoured by HTC with a free account, to work for the players.
I'm not disrecptful of you wok and spending your freetime for this game and others players. Also, it's not my goal to insult anybody here. I think I show that the way non-personal way and never using bad language or personal attacks. If flossy feels insulted by my words, I'm sorry and I can tell her that it was not wanted. I think I explained why I said my words, but I can do that again, if needed. Please email me flossy if so.

I used to think it was all down to a language barrier but after comments like:

"Come on. Are you such an ignorant or am I totally wrong and need some help?"

I'm not native english speaker, but people that reject discussing someone's points, because they think they have no value, are ignorant. He did it, but unfortunatly I didn't see his post before my one. That means Gremlin is not an ignorant.

"Frankly, your attitude is one of the problems SSO has."


Well, frankly, if you think for a second that telling the head CM that she has an attitude problem isn't disrespectful ...

My statement is abov already.

...then you're not only whiner but you're also an idiot.
No, it's you that has the attitude problem pal.

I never called someone on a BB like this and a CM should ever do that for granted. So, I have a attitude problem?

We also don't have the "shut up whiners, feel free to leave" attitude you think we do.

Isn't sling part of the CM team? Well, I don't think the "team" has that attitude. I don't like just generalizations.

Or is it merely that you just don't realise quite how insulting some of your posts can be?

That could be. Could it be that you are a bit sensitive about complaing players on the other hand?

Happy birthday Flossy. You have my best wishes for the next 50 years!

When's your birthday Lucull?

You mean the value of someones post will be from now on judged by the posters age?
If I'm hundred, I'm "twice as good" as one with 50? <- ironic

I don't discuss on your level swoop, sorry.

[Grayarea]

Hopefully this thread will be locked in the next few minutes.

[Swoop]

Originally posted by lucull
That means Gremlin is not an ignorant.

Good.  I'm glad about that, cos being called ignorant is quite an insult in English and Gremlin's a mate of mine.

Originally posted by lucull
Could it be that you are a bit sensitive about complaing players on the other hand?

If that's bait then it's very stinky.  As everyone knows, I'm the most insensitive bastard around.

Originally posted by lucull
You mean the value of someones post will be from now on judged by the posters age?
If I'm hundred, I'm "twice as good" as one with 50? <- ironic

No, I mean if you want to make statements like 'treat others like you want to be treated' then on your next birthday I'm going to make a special point of telling you that you have an attitude problem.  

Since you use [sarcasm] in your posts I assumed that you could recognise it when you saw it.  Apparently I was mistaken.  My apologies, I'll try to be clearer in future.

Originally posted by lucull
I don't discuss on your level swoop, sorry.

And therein lies the problem.

[Squadvid]

wow this thread is getting out of hand  
First i would like to say what a great job Flossy and the CM team does to orgainise and take time from there own life to do what they do, they dont have to do this and the squad op would not be what it is without them
I do think there is room for improvement as in more squads worked together, the first frame of the V1 hunters i took CO for allieds and the WOD, the Firebirds and 880 sqd had to take out a field, they worked together brilliantly, was a bit of a suicide mission but they were comunicating and working together as a team while reinacting a historical event which is what i think squad ops is all about.(not saying we dont work together just saying we could do a little more )

For the alt restrictions, i can see both points of view:
i can see y ppl dont like it as it can be frustrating in some planes and when trying to fight
But i can also see why it is in place as if it wasnt we would have extemely high planes. (There is also the historical factor but we wont go into that coz that just wont go anywhere good )

Maybe we could resolve this by doing something of a mixture, maybe what we could do is set the wind to just about flyable wind, so it unstable but if u want to do a loop or something u can with out being blow into another sector , maybe have the alt limiter at 12k, make the light winds at 12-15k then 15k above make this very bad, not sure if u can do this but it is just an idea.

Well thats my view point, not going to blame ppl or start an arguement, just giving some ideas and viewpoints

[Skuzzy]

lucull, you are way over the line.  It is one thing to have a constructive discussion, but many of your remarks are personal in nature and will not be tolerated.
If you cannot discuss percieved issues/problems without tossing in personal commentary, which adds nothing to the discussion, then you should back away from the bulletin board altogether.

This goes for anyone.

The CM team gives their free time to support the community and we at HTC will not tolerate them being abused to any degree.