Author Topic: SSO "V1 Hunters"  (Read 878 times)

Offline ViFF

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« on: October 19, 2003, 06:41:10 PM »
Was tons of fun !

I had a great time, and frame 3 proved to be the most axhilirating of all, we were in extreme dogfights over A57 & A53 within minutes of being airborne !

I did not notice that the JaboStaffel Squad went awol on us last second, so without our heavy bombers, and vmf323 taken to the allied side it was pretty much lopsided...

In any case, wtg LW !
Even though we were severly outnumbered within the first 60 minutes, and with no aircraft left to defend the V1 sites, we still managed to hit both our assigned targets (A57 & V145).

I have just one thing to criticize,  the 10k & 12k alt limits used were a severe impedemant for both sides, but it was more a fun killer then being anything usefull. Both the 109s and the P-47s which need much vertical room for maneuvering to be effective were nudered to that effect.

Lets not use this fun killing limit again shall we ? :)


Offline Squire

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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2003, 12:27:49 AM »
Unfortunately it seems to be "ok" for some squads to skip off and do a no show when Buffs are assigned in Squad Ops.

Rather dissapointing.

To the rest of the LW, , a good fight. Cya next time Viff.
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Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2003, 03:59:58 AM »
9GIAP upped mossies/tiffs and headed off into the west to poke the LW in the eye.  Professionally supported and covered by the 56th we approached the target from an angle that we hoped would avoid contact til the last minute.

This proved to be the case and we were able to make a couple of slashes at the main target A99 before the LW arrived.  As a furious battle erupted around us we exited at full wep and circled back to base to rearm.  The sky behind us seemed to be full of red chutes - wtg the 56th!  :)

Upping again we followed near the same route back to the target.  We cleaned up the secondary target with a classic line astern attack then returned to the primary.  The LW had obviously found other things to do as they didn't show this time.   We hammered A99 til nothing stood.  (They won't launch any V1's from there for a while).

We rtb'd and were excused further duties despite all planes being fully intact.  It was off to the O's club for a jolly old binge. :D

Our take on the Alt limit:

We thought it was great.  It was quite refreshing not be bounced from 30k for a change after climbing for 45 minutes.  In terms of this type of operation, the wind layer sets a hard ceiling that would be dictated by weather in the real world.  I seem to recall in Galland's book his 109's covered the Channel running German fleet at 300 feet.  By contrast, 12k seems more than enough room.
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

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Offline lucull

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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2003, 07:58:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
Unfortunately it seems to be "ok" for some squads to skip off and do a no show when Buffs are assigned in Squad Ops.

Rather dissapointing.

To the rest of the LW, , a good fight. Cya next time Viff.


In frame 2, the JBs said, that they will not participate when still alt restriction is enabled.
Of course they should have said that on the BB too, but I was not surprised. ;)

I have no fun at all in the SEA in having low alt furballs within 5 min flying. I can have this with endless lives in the MA.

Offline SELECTOR

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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2003, 01:02:50 PM »
alt restrictions is for kids..

Offline ViFF

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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2003, 03:43:45 PM »
Quote
In terms of this type of operation, the wind layer sets a hard ceiling that would be dictated by weather in the real world. I seem to recall in Galland's book his 109's covered the Channel running German fleet at 300 feet.



Sorry, I just don't see the comparison. If the reason for the wind layer "alt cap" was to sub for a solid overcast, then its a poor method to simulate clouds if it restricts you climbing into them.

Clouds were extensively used to HIDE INSIDE by ww2 pilots.. there are countless accounts.

In our case the 109s got up to 12k, and just wobbled around doing horizontal maneuvers only to be overtaken by the Tempests and plucked out one by one.

Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2003, 10:26:08 PM »
I posted a point of view shared unanimously by my squad pilots that participated.  Now I see that some sort of childish flame war is brewing.

I reiterate:  My squad thought it was innovative and worthwhile.
I offered a simple reason, beyond that stated in the scenario guidlines, that might offer some gentle but positive perspective of ceiling restriction.

The nit-picking that now flows forth at my statement of support for the idea leaves me cold - just as cold as the actions of squads that sign up and then walk out because they don't like one aspect of the scenario.

I trust that in accordance with the SO rules that the offenders will be banned if sufficient accounting of their actions are not provided.
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there is where the vultures gather together.

Offline B17Skull12

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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2003, 11:13:03 PM »
i myself never like the 10k rules. reason why my squad didn't goallied the 10k basic kills the spit14 and is true power. but a temp is is fine just HOing and cherry picking.

Same can be said about the 109G10 and dora. both we at a disadvantage because of alt CAP qhile in a 262 only thing you have to worry about is the wind blowing your tail off. IMO the 10k alt limit basic said NOE if it was 15k then JABO would be understandable. Im sorry i cant JABO that well if im not 13k above the target. but it felt good to be back in german metal. :) (i hate HOing cherry picking ultra dweebish temppy fliers ;) )
II/JG3 DGS II

Offline lucull

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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2003, 12:00:17 AM »
See it like this dantoo:

- Nobody likes being bounced by alt monkes (>35k).

- Most will agree, that an alt restriction is a way to prevend this.

- Only few like it being forces with P47s, Doras, Spit14, Tempests, 262s, .... into low alt furballs within 5mins.

Since when does the minority dictate the majority what they have to do, when the people can leave when they don't like it?!

For gods sake, I guess, the majority could live with 30k alt cap, but I like to fly historically based events and I don't like any alt restriction, but I can make compromises.

Offline lucull

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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2003, 12:05:57 AM »
And again JB CO said in frame 2 in the arena, that they will not participate again with that alt restriction. Secondly, I posted that in the analysis of frame 2. And last but not least, even if they didn't announce it on this BB again, nobody can force them to do something they don't like.

Offline ghostdancer

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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2003, 07:25:16 AM »
JBs will be shorty notified over this.

When joining this event everyone, and I mean everyone understands that there are a bare set of minimum rules. One of them is the squad committment level. Every squad must turn out their minimum committment level -2 at the very least.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2003, 07:34:45 AM by ghostdancer »
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Offline Flyboy

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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2003, 09:48:24 AM »
if you look back on this last frame you will notice that the fights have begun within minutes after the frame has started, not enough time for going 30k "altmonkey"

if you want a jabo event plan it in such a way that the game play will be fast and then you wont get high planes (i belive that last frame was) but do not put on altitude restrictions atleast not in 10k or even 12k

sure you might get planes at 15 or 20k but there is nothing wrong with it on the contrary its historical.

there is nothing wrong in trying to gain an advantage over the enemy.

you Can for example set a cloud layer over the battle zone and then If the Jabo's will attack low and the defenders will be above the clouds...well you get the idea :)


just my thoughts
i Had a great time in the last frame

keep up the good job CMs and dont let the whining get to you ;)

Offline Gremlin

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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2003, 12:31:15 PM »
I can see the POV of both sides of the alt limit argument.  I think there are valid points for and against.  The main point against it I can see is that it limits manoevering in the vertical and thus nullifies some of the strenghts of the better climbers.  On the pro side (and specifically in relation to this SSO) it is important to appreciate that the jabo planes were the focus of this SSO not the fighters.  The 12k alt limit made for some interesting engagements.  One particular onewhich strikes me was in frame 3.  Picture this, Mossies and tiffies in jabo mode, tempests covering (but also heavy).  Intercepted by a large group of 109s and 190s over the target.  All hell breaks loose. Result: tonne of fun.

I agree the alt limit would not be applicable or fair in a more fighter bases scenario, I think it added to this one, but some disagree, and they have valid points too.


Offline JB42

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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2003, 09:41:06 AM »
You guys are responding to this alt limit exception like it was something that came from alt monkey whines. I'll be the first to admit I have complained in the past about high alt engagements, but never complained about 15k alt monkeys. This alt cap was 10k. That's a bit drastic dont you think. Espicially in a scenerio involving late war German AC against Spits, Typhs, Temps. Clearly the LW planes are no match for the Allies planes with such a low ceiling. 20k or even 25k would have been more of usable restriction.
As for a "boycott" of frame three, it's not that dramatic fellas. Most of my squad just didn't want to be slaughtered like in the first 2 frames. They simply had better things to do. If you feel this warrants our removal from SO, then so be it. I can't make them show up. This event simulates military events, however participation is still voluntary.
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Offline ghostdancer

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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2003, 10:53:17 AM »
JB42,

As explained via email the issue revolves around the simple fact that members of your squad publicly told others they would not participate because of this rule. This is not my interpretation this is what was stated by members of your squad.

Others here also expressed their opinion about this rule and opposition for it. Others (not the majority in my opinion stated their support for it). In either, case their squads turned out for it. III/JABOSTAFFEL did not and told people they would not participate.

This is a structured squad based event with set obligations for each squad that participates. Such as following the orders of the frame CiC, flying the planes assigned, trying to follow assigned mission objectives of the frame CiC, and turning out the minimum commitment number each frame. The complicate nature of Squad Ops relies on all squads meeting this obligations and others. If they don’t it affects all the other squads (i.e. not following orders, requesting reups when already killed, not issue orders, etc.)

Its is understood that a C.O. can only try to turn out people to fly in an event. Which is why there are multiple levels of commitment. Allowing a C.O. to choose what he thinks he can reasonably turnout each frame and is why the CMs contact each squad to try to confirm via email two email contacts for that squad and also commitment level.

So yes, a squads pilots voluntary participate. But when can’t meet its minimum turnout requirements or deems it can’t continue to do so many delist. For example MAG-33 and AirMAgeddon both decided to withdraw from the event recently because they could not guarantee turning out pilots. 9 GIAP volunteer withdrew in the recent past because some of its pilots lied and requested a second reup. In response the C.O. of that squad ejected the offenders (2) from his squad and withdrew until he could take care of internal matters so that it did not happen again.

In this case a squad publicly said it would not participate and then didn’t. Other squads also complained on the BBS and via email but did participate and overall participation match the second frame (70 flew in frame 2 and 70 in frame 3). When squads join squad ops it is understood that they are obligated to produce their minimum commitment numbers each frame. If they don't it is addressed on a case by case basis to see if the reason why is acceptable (i.e. 101st Red Israel were all at their C.O. (MA and SEA) wedding). Members of your squad made a very public statement and decision.

Unfortunately they crossed a line that, while its their right not to participate, its is also the events right to say fine you are removed from the event. This time its about a special rule. Next time a squad can say we will not fly because so-and-so is the selected CiC or because of the plane we are assigned. You could have a squad insisting that it fly what the squad historically flew (i.e. say the 412th insisted on flying P51s when available or they would not fly or the 56th P47s or they would not fly). In a structured multi-framed event which relies on squads working together to play in the event squads have to agree to play by certain rules and accept certain responsibilities for ongoing multi-frame events to work. Squad Ops are not pick up games like snap shots.

If it was only one or 2 of your squad members I would have contacted you about talking to them over the incident. The fact that your whole squad did not show up after making a public statement why to the other LW squads basically leaves me no choice but to address this on a group level since they whole group did this.

This is not a decision I relish or take lightly. But in my position as Squad Ops Team Lead and CM Corp X.O. it is a decision based on the fact members of your squad said we will not participate and then the squad didn’t. I am sorry that it had to come to this but it was their action and decision.

As you said they decided as a group:

Quote

They simply had better things to do


This is fine but this is a squad based event. If a squad decides that it has better things to do and actually goes beyond that by saying that they won't participate unless something is changed. Well then that squad is no longer can reliably be counted on to meet its obligations. Meaning they can't be kept in the order of battle because they might or might not turn out as a group depending on if something is or is not to their liking.

NOTE: The delisting is only the sunday squad / group of players. The Friday squad / group of players is not delisted.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2003, 11:03:08 AM by ghostdancer »
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