Author Topic: Swiss elections (Read 859 times)

Krusher · « **on:** October 20, 2003, 04:58:16 PM »

So how do you Euros feel about the far-right Swiss People's Party doing so well in the elections? I read that they pretty much ran on a anti-foreigner/Anti-immigration platform. From what I have been reading many Anti-immigration groups are gaining strength in Europe.

Kieran · « **Reply #1 on:** October 20, 2003, 08:18:57 PM »

You mean... they are bigoted? Say it ain't so!

You mean... having a pluralistic society is too complicated, therefore it is necessary to begin weeding out undesireables?

You mean... America's culture problems aren't uniquely American?

Say it ain't so, Joe. Say it ain't so.

Duedel · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2003, 03:04:20 AM »

In many European countries the far-rights are getting more and more voices (not in Germany btw).
Let's take a closer look at the German far-rights:
Many people are dissatisfied with their government (regarding economics). They are afraid of loosing their jobs or getting poorer and so on. They see the cause p.e. for unemployment in the moving in of asylum seekers. That is as a matter of course bullshiiit cause asylum seekers are not allowed to work.
But u can see that most people dont understand the real cause, they are dumb. They take the easy argument (as always) and blame the foreigners. BUT! Without our foreigner our economy would be worser than with them. Germany needs foreigners.

Now take a look at the rich Swiss that vote for these pseudo nazis. The average poor unemployed Swiss is 10000 times richer than a worker from Senegal. The difference between them is that one was lucky to get born in Switzerland.

So should the rich countries allow everyone to come in? No. Its not practicable - sadly. But we have a responsibility for those countries we have exploited.

Switzerland already has really strong asylum laws and they are still afraid ... thats IMHO sick and shows that this land is quixotic.

Kieran · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2003, 07:25:32 AM »

Funny thing is, I agree with the Swiss, and immigration should be tightened up for all countries.

miko2d · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2003, 07:56:21 AM »

Duedel: The difference between them is that one was lucky to get born in Switzerland.

With all the nonsense packed in this small (so far) thread, this statement easily takes the crown.

People are not animals that procreate indiscriminately. People have the unique faculty of reason which they use to plan and forecast and change their circumastances and create conditions for their descendants. At least some of them.

Civilised people do not differ from barbarians or animals by the amount of wealth they have or technology or even knowlege. Civilised people differ from animals, underclass scum, and barbarians by the extent of their time horizons - the extent to which they plan their future.

A swiss is not lucky to be born in good conditions. For over half a millenia swiss people maintained and protected (from invaders as well as from temptation of conquest) free society based on democratic principles and developed their economy in order to have limited number of children they could raise properly and in order to insure those children live as they saw proper for human beings. No luck here.

I know that there is no luck in my children being born intelligent, mentally balanced and looking forward to years of carefull instruction in all subjects of knowlege. It was generations of carefull mate selection, preservation/development of culture and laborous upbringing that persisted through several total economic ruinations, regime changes, emigrations, wars, etc...

I don't know about you, Duedel - maybe you really do not see a future beyong this night's drink and sports game and your children are born as a result of an accident. Maybe you even do not know your ancestors and have no particular cause to respect them. Bad for you.

Civilised people invest into the future by reducing current consumption - sacrificing leisure time, comfort and safety for labor, learning, austerity and risk, just so that their children and grandchildren would not need luck to live like human beings should.

miko

straffo · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:26:20 AM »

1515 Marignan !

Any French having never heard about this it definitively not French

threedays · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:34:05 AM »

well 20% of Swiss population are not nativ Swiss
they have 3 official languages there

i can travell to Swiss w/o visa

Swiss is most multi national country around the world (my guess)

So if some US boy start to whinne about Swiss, you should check reality

the only one funny thing about swiss is that many of them are over selfconfidence (they are quite cool all the time and very serious

) [just hope that messy isnt around

]

Try these numbers compare to america and let me know...

ps.: dont forget that we need to wait for US Visa cca 2 months and then they will just tell .. ohh boy you are young you could work there.. we are scare of people whitch can work .. so fak off

(and ofcourse they will keep your 50 USD imao)

so we can consider swiss to be free country compare to US (and dont ask about average income of swiss

)

threedays · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:37:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
Funny thing is, I agree with the Swiss, and immigration should be tightened up for all countries.

why do you think ?

miko2d · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:43:42 AM »

In modern welfare states people are obligated/coerced to pay for their coutryman. Thus admitting a foreigner that through no fault of you is going to be a burden means taking upon oneself an extra obligation - or more likely having that obligation put on you by pro-immigration politicians.

Why would anyone want to ne subject to unvoluntary obligations? After all, of one wanted to spend money on africans of mexicans, one could do so with ease.

Of course in a free state the issue of immigration would never arise.

miko

Duedel · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:49:48 AM »

@miko

Everyone is born in the circumstances he's born (sounds logical). So everyone has to live with these circumstances (and maybe enhance them). Some can immegrate to alter these circumstances some not.
There are many born into the badest environment u can imagine.
Are they guilty to be born in these circumstances? No. Was that their decision? Surely not. Is it fair? No. Do they have the chance to change the society? Maybe some strong minded but most not.
So IMHO everyone who lives in a rich country should:
- be aware that this is a big privilege
- be thankfull that he had THE LUCK to got born there
- think about the others that didnt have the luck and maybe help
them to better their situation

So back to the word LUCK. Maybe i should have used another word i.e. Random but its definitly not determination.

Duedel · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:54:46 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by threedays
well 20% of Swiss population are not nativ Swiss

... where many of them are foreign mercantilists or other rich people that are "usefull" foreigners and that are attracted by the low taxes.

threedays · « **Reply #11 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:58:44 AM »

LOL

are you sure about low Taxes ?

i do not know exact numbers but last time my friend was about to pay tax, he was complaining that its a lot of money

Is there any Swiss dweeb around.... may be some tree lover ?

i realy dont think that taxes are low in swiss

i will bring this number later

any if i have mouney i would may be move there as well
its quite and clean country with nice nature and decent people

so why shoulnt rich merchant move there

Does anyone have clue what is corruption in Swiss and other countries like Fr,De,Uk,Us ?

swiss is one of most beautiful country i ever saw (except our village

)

miko2d · « **Reply #12 on:** October 21, 2003, 09:50:13 AM »

Duedel: @miko
Everyone is born in the circumstances he's born (sounds logical).

My children where quite conciously created after a lot of planning in an environment I found lacking and greatly modified by the time I found suitable for their birth.
I see no luck here and no obligation on myself or on my children deriving from my concious actions to improve our station in life.

Are they guilty to be born in these circumstances? No. Was that their decision? Surely not.

But their parents may be - if they had facilities of reason. You may be surprised, but most people who suffer are not victims of a disaster or war but the natural way of life of their society. And most traditional societies are actively opposed to the ways that are conductive to accumulation of wealth.

If you deny that their parents were capable of reason, then your reduce them to the level of animals and completely different standards apply to the treatment of animals. Dangerous ground here.
If they are not capable of concious procreation, then you are not "helping" them but breeding them, just like you breed more animals by giving them more food. I strongly oppose any breeding experiments on other humans - whether directed to increasing or decreasing their numbers. Those things are best left to nature (nature's God).

So IMHO everyone who lives in a rich country should:
- be aware that this is a big privilege

Rather the efforts of their ancestors.

- be thankfull that he had THE LUCK to got born there

That the ancestor chose to give them life in the conditions that were suitable - and not just economic ones.

think about the others that didn't have the luck and maybe help them to better their situation

I agree with that - but again with a qualification.
People should help other people - but it should be done voluntarily, not coerced on them by the government or majority.

The best help the deprived people can get is if the rich countries dismantle their welfare states and the tariff/labor/capital/immigration restrictions necessary for their existance. If a senegalese comes into my country because someone is ready to hire him - without any obligations on my part, so that his employer can supply us all with cheaper products, so that my nominal salary can be cut while still having my real wage raising, so my employer can profitably hire more people and expand production, etc. etc... Why would I object? We would all prosper greatly.

So back to the word LUCK. Maybe i should have used another word i.e. Random but its definitly not determination.

What's random here? Parents select suitable genes for my children, parents mold and fill their minds (building on the foundation laid by their ancestors) and you say they are just the result of a random occurence once they grow up and are entitled to vote and subject to taxation?

miko

Kieran · « **Reply #13 on:** October 21, 2003, 10:46:47 AM »

Quote

People are not animals that procreate indiscriminately.

What planet do you live on?

Kieran · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2003, 10:52:59 AM »

Why do I think immigration should be tightened in most countries? Where do I start?

Take social burden. If a society is relatively successful, it becomes attractive to the downtrodden of another country. That's cool, but if too many folks "run for the border", the society can become overburdened. Look at what is happening on our southern border. To deny the impact rampant illegal immigration is having on our southwestern states is foolish.

Look at the UK, and its growing crime, which in large part can be attributed to an influx of immigrants. Not all Brits appear to be happy about that.

I could go on, but you get the point.