GREAT STORY OF A Ta-152H-1 Vs. TEMPEST IN WW2

[327thBS]

The Stabsschwarm of JG301 was the unit to fly the Ta 152 operationally. The pilots were impressed by it's handling characteristics. One pilot said:
"-The flying characteristics put all previous German fighters completely in shade. Although I never flew the Me 262 jet, I would venture to suggest that the Ta 152 was far better when it came to dogfighting with the Allied fighters then in service."


So, the Ta 152 was good, the Tempest was also good. Who was better? The Stabsshwarm of JG 301 was stationed at Neustadt-Glewe. On 14. April after returning from a mission two enemy Aircraft were reported strafing Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152s were ordered to scramble at once- piloted by Oberstleutant Aufhammer, Oberfeldwebel Sattler and Oberfeldwebel Reschke.

"-As the direction of take-off was in line with the railway tracks leading straight to Ludwigslust, we were almost immediately in contact wit enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests Flying in No. 3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the two Tempest had clearly only just registered our presence. So it was now two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shot-down our V-1s. But here, in a fight which would not rise above 50m, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important. Both pilots realized from the start it would be a fight to the finish and used every flying trick and tactial ploy possible to gain the upper hand. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began to fully appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.
Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once felling that I was approaching the limit of the Ta 152 capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights , the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside of me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta 152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapon went silent, and despite all my efforts to clean them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot didn't realize my predicament as he'd already taken hits. Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself, so I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually-inevitably-he stalled. The Tempest's left wing droped and he crashed into the woods below. It so happened that that the sit of Oberfeldwebel Sattler's crash site and that of the Tempest pilot, who proved to be New Zealender Wt Off O. J. Mitchell, were only about a kilometer apart. They were buried side-by-side in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery next day with full military honors."

I live in the Air and die by fire

[Guppy35]

Not sure if the implication is that the TA152 was better?

I'd suggest that it still came down to the pilot.

Some other info on the story at the RNZAF Fighter Pilots Association website regarding Mitchell who had only been in combat since March of 45.

Reschke was a 27 kill ace.  

http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/fragments/fot_best.htm

I'm in one of those moods where the thought of those two young men losing their lives gives me pause.


Dan/Slack

[Citabria]

sounds like pilot vs pilot advantage.

the ta152 and tempest are close enough in turn ability that a better pilot in a ta can always win vs a novice temp pilot.

same is true of the opposite

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Citabria
sounds like pilot vs pilot advantage.

the ta152 and tempest are close enough in turn ability that a better pilot in a ta can always win vs a novice temp pilot.

same is true of the opposite

This is certainly true. In the case cited, the Tempest pilots fought stupidly, not exploiting the principle advantages of their fighter. Instead, they engaged under the best possible circumstances for the Ta 152s, which had rather lethargic engine performance at low altitude.

My regards,

Widewing

[F1Bomber]

This is certainly true. In the case cited, the Tempest pilots fought stupidly, not exploiting the principle advantages of their fighter. Instead, they engaged under the best possible circumstances for the Ta 152s, which had rather lethargic engine performance at low altitude.

I feel upset when i read comments like this about people who only fly a flight simulator to comment and point out the mistakes made by real pilots in battle situations. You have no right to say that the person was "stupidly, not expliting the principles advantates".

People under high level of stress makes mistakes like anyone. To payout a pilot in wwii when you only fly a flight simulator is wrong. Instead accept that people make mistakes in real life, and they only have 1 life in real life. These situations happen, have some respect for pilots who payed the highest cost of the war!

I see this time and time again. Virtual pilots who only fly a flight sim to point out the mistakes of others in real war is just stupid. I have even seen people get into a discussion of what A pilot did wrong, A pilot should of gotten alt before fighting, A pilot should of not turned that jug! ect.. ect...

The reality check of the situation was that the pilots were straffing a train station. They were cought un-awar by the ta-152. They prob only found out about them prob at the last minute and had very limit amout of time to react to the situation. They were scared as all hell and tried the best they could!!

big to the tempest pilots who payed the ultimate price.

[Batz]

These temp were  returning home from an armed recce mission looking Targets of opportunity. On their way home they attacked a train and rail yard. Just like they were supposed to do.

The 152 wasnt just a high alt fighter. Even in this case the 152s took off just a few minutes from where the tempest were. JG 301 shoot down many yak 9us over Berlin. On April 20th Reschke claimed 2 yaks over Berlin.

Also only 1 temp pilot was lost. The other escaped.

Also Oberfeldwebel Sattler didnt just "auger in" he was shot down by the other temp (forgot the pilots name). There's a better description of this fight on the web. One where the other temp pilot claims to have made a pass on Sattler before being chased off by the 3rd 152.

The only advantage the temp held was top speed. Unlike AH planes didnt fly around at full speed spraying like crazy.

Willi Reschke flew about 48 combat missions in achieving 27 confirmed victories, 20 of them four-engined bombers.

"The Ta152 was my life insurance in the last days of the war."

Willi Reschke

Here found it

Two of the Best

It was the 14th April 1945 and the war against Germany was rapidly drawing to an end. A young New Zealander from Nelson, Warrant Officer Owen Mitchell, had found that he was centre-stage to the death-throes of a nation.

An excellent cricketer and sensitive musician Mitchell had joined the RNZAF in 1942 directly from University where he had been studying engineering. At 20 years of age the young pilot transferred to England where, after training, he started to accumulate flying hours as an instructor and pilot with various Operational Training Units.

By early 1945 Mitchell had over 700 hours to his credit and was converted onto the latest fighter in the RAF inventory - the Hawker Tempest V. The next step was operational flying and he was delighted, when in early March he found that he had been posted to No. 486 (NZ) Squadron based at Volkel in Holland. The squadron was on the front-line and coming into daily contact with a still very efficient Luftwaffe as well as fierce anti-aircraft fire.

By early April the squadron had moved into Germany itself and was using their base at Hopsten to harass the enemy both in the air and on the ground.

At the German base of Neustadt-Glewe, Oberfeldwebel Sattler was also delighted with his new posting - to the elite Luftwaffe unit called the Stabsschwarm (part of JG301). They were flying the latest German fighter and ultimate development of the Focke Wulf 190 series of aircraft - the Ta-152.

At 6-25pm on the evening of the 14th Mitchell and three others from his squadron took off on an armed reconnaissance of the area. The section attacked a train north of Ludwigslust and then became split up. The leader and his number two ordering Sid Short and Owen Mitchell to make their own ways home.

Short and Mitchell, busily strafing along the rail tracks nearby on their way home, came under the watchful eye of lookouts at Neustadt-Glewe who immediately despatched three Ta-152 to intercept. The pilots - Aufhammer, Sattler and Reschke were on the scene in seconds. Reschke takes up the story;

"Flying in No.3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It seemed impossible for the crash to be from enemy action."

Unknown to Reschke the New Zealander Short had managed to fire at Sattler in a quick pass before being attacked by Aufhammer. Friend and foe now started a turning match that seemed to last forever. Neither could gain the advantage and after 15 minutes the two pilots broke away and returned to their respective bases - glad to be able to fly home in one piece.

In the meantime Reschke and Mitchell were also in mortal combat.

"So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important.

Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.

The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.

Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.

Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us."

The young New Zealander was killed instantly and in a quirk of fate his aircraft crashed less than 500 metres from the German pilot Sattler. The Luftwaffe technicians recovered the two pilots' bodies that evening.

The next day Mitchell and Sattler were buried side by side with full military honours in the Cemetery Neustadt-Glewe. During the funeral Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke stood guard of honour in front of the coffins.

It is fitting to end this story here by allowing these two relatively unknown pilots - each flying arguably the most advanced piston-engined fighter produced by their respective nations to see service in the air war over Western Europe - to represent the many thousands on both sides who had gone before.

Footnote:

In 1947 the body of Owen James Mitchell was reinterred in the British Military Cemetery in Heerstrasse, Berlin. The Missing Research and Enquiry Unit who recovered the body in September 1947 noted;

"We visited the area (now in the Russian Zone) and found Body No. 1. This body was found to be clothed in khaki battledress and had New Zealand marked on the shoulder. The socks were RAF blue and the boots RAF escape type flying boots. On a handkerchief found in the pocket I found the name Pettitt in print letters, about ¼ inch high on the hem."

Owen Mitchell, the New Zealander from Nelson was killed 18 days before the end of hostilities.

[humble]

Originally posted by F1Bomber
I feel upset when i read comments like this about people who only fly a flight simulator to comment and point out the mistakes made by real pilots in battle situations. You have no right to say that the person was "stupidly, not expliting the principles advantates".  

Your point has some validity but realistically most "sim pilots" are significantly better than 99% of the pilots who flew in WW2 (with regard to their understanding of ACM,SA and general air combat tactics). A very small percentage of pilots in WW2 on any side were resonsible for a very large percentage of total kills. In 1944 the life expectancy of a new german pilot on the western front was 11 days (5 combat missions). Obviously the physical demands of actual flying would preclude many "arm chair aces" from enjoying any success and others would be unable to handle the mental strain of combat...but many would be just as deadly in real life as in a sim. A good example is the value the FAA places on simulation training in air safety and pilot certification...many simmers have 1000+ hours of actual air combat...thats 100x or even 1000x the combat experience of many actual aces....don't underestimate the  value of that experience in playing what if.

As for the pilots....I agree....war is a brutal thing. But you need look no further than our own past. Of the ~6,000 original members of the 1st brigade (Army of Northern Virginia) during our own civil war only 211 lived thru the war (none of the rank of captain or above).

[Westy]

"Unlike AH planes didnt fly around at full speed spraying like crazy"

Heh   True.  

FWIW there is NOTHING remotely realistic about "dogfighting" in AH (or WB or WWIIO) in comparison to real life aircombat (combat of any kind really).

[NOD2000]

Originally posted by humble
Your point has some validity but realistically most "sim pilots" are significantly better than 99% of the pilots who flew in WW2 (with regard to their understanding of ACM,SA and general air combat tactics). A very small percentage of pilots in WW2 on any side were resonsible for a very large percentage of total kills. In 1944 the life expectancy of a new german pilot on the western front was 11 days (5 combat missions). Obviously the physical demands of actual flying would preclude many "arm chair aces" from enjoying any success and others would be unable to handle the mental strain of combat...but many would be just as deadly in real life as in a sim. A good example is the value the FAA places on simulation training in air safety and pilot certification...many simmers have 1000+ hours of actual air combat...thats 100x or even 1000x the combat experience of many actual aces....don't underestimate the  value of that experience in playing what if.

As for the pilots....I agree....war is a brutal thing. But you need look no further than our own past. Of the ~6,000 original members of the 1st brigade (Army of Northern Virginia) during our own civil war only 211 lived thru the war (none of the rank of captain or above).

IMO, I have to dissagree. Again how many people that fly a flight sim like AH have actually flown area combat. Sorry, but most flight sim pilots have combat hours but thats in a FLIGHT SIM, a flight sim does not have engines that cough, it does not feel g's, and it does not have a blinding sun. In a flight sim you can put it to the firewall and your engine just goes back to maximum power after it over heats; in real life your engine overheats and it dies. Plus honestly "sim pilots know about ACM" who in their F*in right mind is going to think "well if i turn with the torque i can save some E" while some 30mm slugs are burstin 3ft - 4ft away from thier head. Also when you get wounded in AH your screen goes black....in real life that would F*in HURT!!!!! you couldn't think srait, none the less consider ACM. Trust me combat and a "flight sim" are two WAY WAY diffrent things.

[F1Bomber]

Your point has some validity but realistically most "sim pilots" are significantly better than 99% of the pilots who flew in WW2 (with regard to their understanding of ACM,SA and general air combat tactics). A very small percentage of pilots in WW2 on any side were resonsible for a very large percentage of total kills. In 1944 the life expectancy of a new german pilot on the western front was 11 days (5 combat missions). Obviously the physical demands of actual flying would preclude many "arm chair aces" from enjoying any success and others would be unable to handle the mental strain of combat...but many would be just as deadly in real life as in a sim. A good example is the value the FAA places on simulation training in air safety and pilot certification...many simmers have 1000+ hours of actual air combat...thats 100x or even 1000x the combat experience of many actual aces....don't underestimate the value of that experience in playing what if.

All this does is prove my point exactly what i was saying on this boards.

Have some respect for the familys and the people who lost loved ones during the war. But NEVER NEVER EVER stand up and say that a flight sim user has a better understanding of acm, and have 1000x times more combat experience of many actual aces.

You will find that during the battle of britain that even the young guns who just came out of flight school were the first ones to die during the opening stages of combat. There is good reason for this, mostly they have never ever seen combat. People tend to do some werid things during combat that you cannot exsplain. People put there lives on the line for there buddies and position themselves into worst positions to save a friend! Even some people freeze at the controls!

Crap here i am going to get a paragraph from one of my text books.

Book: The Battle of Brtain July - Octaober 1940
An oral history of britains 'finest hour'
Auther: Matthew Parker

Page 2 Paragraph 2 and 3.

My Darling,
May thanks for your long letter but I am sorry that our first letter crossed. Well dear, I have a last got my own machine. It is brand new and will be super when I have flown it for a few hours. At the moment I am having a ‘Felix the car’ painted on it. My Pal [ Laurence ‘Rubber’ Thorgood, Sids’ Best friend on the squadron] also has his own machine now so the Heavenly Twins are quite happy.
I hope you do not get too bored with life now mother Is away but please darling, look after yourself and get as much rest as you can. You know sweetheart I worry quite a lot about your health so please look after yourself.
I have been shifted back to my old flight again so I am still in the same flight as Rubber. Well dear please give me regards to everone and I hope you feeling fit.

So, Cheerio Darling
Yours as Ever
Sid xxxxx

Three days later, a force of german dive-bombers was spotted once more assembling over Cherbourg on the northern French coast. Soon they were joined by a swarm of 200 fighters. The thirteen! Hurricans of 87 squadron were the first to interception 20,000 feet over Portland. Flying with Wakeling, Widge Gleed wrote later of that moment: ‘My mouth feels hellishly dry; there is a strong sinking feeling in my breast. Thank God a doctor inst listening to my heart. It’s absolutely banging away. The pilot hear a familiar cry over their radios: ‘Christ! There they are. Tally-ho’ and swing into attack formation, ‘line aster, line astern, go!’ with closing speed of upwards of 600 miles an hour, the opposing fighters are amongst each other in seconds. The hurricans open fire with eight wing-mounted machine-guns. The germans respond with cannon – Thin shelled exsplosive bullets. After the first pass, the fighters wheel about, deperately trying to shake an enemy off their tail or to bring one into their sights. Within moments, there is smoke and flames; an aircraft explodes violently; now there are parachutes drifiting thought the thickening combat. Side Wakeling, throwing his aircraft around in the sky, is turning to face an attacker when a cannon shell rips into his cockpit. His comrades hear him over the radio saying his hands have been blown off, but he’s going to try to get back to base. But his aircraft is now on fire, and spiralling down towards the Dorset countryside. Moment, they see him jump clear, but he falls on a roadside and lies there, the silk of his unopened parchute flapping forlornly in the wind.
On the same day, in west Lodon, Daphne sit down to reply to sid’s last letter:

QUOTE]

[Guppy35]

I remember standing next to Earl at the AW con in Indy a few years back while they were showing how they had improved the flight modeling on the P47.

Earl was our real combat vet AW pilot who won a DFC & Silver Star in Jugs flying ground attack over the Po Valley in Italy during WW2 who'd flown 250 missions in 39s and 47s with the 350th FG.

He wasn't commenting on what they were showing us so I asked him what he thought.  The basic message of his reply was it was nothing like the real Jug, but that it really didn't matter as it was fine for the game.   The key word being 'game"

Not one of us ever launches with the real threat that we are going to die.  Hypoxia from a failure of our oxygen system isn't a possibility.  Getting too cold, or having ice form on the windscreen to the point we can't see isn't going to happen.  We don't feel the physical forces of the G's on us even when we'black out'.  Burning to death just won't happen unless the house starts on fire.  If we force land or bail out over enemy territory, we don't face the chance of getting lynched

So while we may understand the physics of flight and the use of ACM, it is just never going to compare unless we have to deal with those other factors as well.  And I'm glad I don't have to

Dan/Slack

[gofaster]

Real pilots didn't have their wives banging on their headset saying "Are you listening to me?" while trying to engage multiple bandits at 10,000 feet over A5.

[moot]

It's all in your head. Fake or beliveable.

Why do you think they train foot soldiers to erase the hesitation to pull the trigger and replace it with an instant tug?

Why do you think they train monks to meditate?

Why don't they just stop sim flight training right after they've seen every basic component of a situation once?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by F1Bomber
I feel upset when i read comments like this about people who only fly a flight simulator to comment and point out the mistakes made by real pilots in battle situations. You have no right to say that the person was "stupidly, not expliting the principles advantates".

People under high level of stress makes mistakes like anyone. To payout a pilot in wwii when you only fly a flight simulator is wrong. Instead accept that people make mistakes in real life, and they only have 1 life in real life. These situations happen, have some respect for pilots who payed the highest cost of the war!

I see this time and time again. Virtual pilots who only fly a flight sim to point out the mistakes of others in real war is just stupid. I have even seen people get into a discussion of what A pilot did wrong, A pilot should of gotten alt before fighting, A pilot should of not turned that jug! ect.. ect...

The reality check of the situation was that the pilots were straffing a train station. They were cought un-awar by the ta-152. They prob only found out about them prob at the last minute and had very limit amout of time to react to the situation. They were scared as all hell and tried the best they could!!

big to the tempest pilots who payed the ultimate price.

What makes you think my experience is limited to playing flight sims? FYI, I have over 2,300 hours in military (U.S. Navy) aircraft and 332 shipboard traps.

Never assume that just because old farts like myself fly this game for recreation that we don't have beaucoup time and experience in the real world.

My regards,

Widewing

[F4i]

Originally posted by Widewing
What makes you think my experience is limited to playing flight sims? FYI, I have over 2,300 hours in military (U.S. Navy) aircraft and 332 shipboard traps.

Never assume that just because old farts like myself fly this game for recreation that we don't have beaucoup time and experience in the real world.

My regards,

Widewing

Yes, and I have well over 200 carrier landings under my own belt*, and I can vouch for Widewing by saying that he's not a bulltoejamting, post-it-cuz-it-makes-me-sound-smart type of guy.  

TBolt









*in Aces High only