Author Topic: Vouchers and votes  (Read 1299 times)

Offline JBA

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Vouchers and votes
« on: October 22, 2003, 09:29:20 AM »
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20031015.shtml

Vouchers and votes
Thomas Sowell (archive)
October 15, 2003

During a recent visit to Washington, I was told by a high official there that he had posed this question to Democrats: "Why are you so opposed to vouchers?"

The reply: "We aren't going to give you guys a victory."

If you stop and think about it, if the Democrats allow the Republicans to pass a bill that will make vouchers available all across America, that could create a huge political problem for the Democrats at the next election and for years thereafter.

First of all, vouchers would alienate one of the Democrats' biggest financial contributors, the teachers' unions. These unions also supply much manpower and phone banks to get out the votes on election nights. Losing their support would be a huge loss.

Then there is the support of blacks, who are the group that votes most dependably and most overwhelmingly for Democrats. But what if a Republican-sponsored bill creates vouchers that allow black children to escape the terrible schools that so many attend?
Since voucher schools will not have to accept hoodlums, they will tend to be safer places, even if the education they offer is no better. But studies have already indicated that there are better educational results as well.

Not all black parents will send their children to private schools with their vouchers and not all those that do will vote Republican at the next election. But once it becomes apparent that vouchers offer some escape from the worst schools, word is going to spread. Moreover, Republicans can point out that Democrats fought against vouchers, tooth and nail, for years.

This does not mean that most blacks would vote Republican. Chances are the Democrats would continue to win a majority of the black votes for some time to come. But, in a country as evenly divided politically as America is today, Democrats could be ruined if their current 90 percent of the black vote erodes to 75 percent. Democrats are already in trouble among white voters, so they need every black vote they can get to offset that.

In short, giving the Republicans a victory on vouchers could mean giving them many victories in future elections, where the difference between winning and losing is a few percentage points. That includes elections for President of the United States.
Whatever the shortcomings of politicians, they can count votes. Sometimes that is all they can do or want to do.

What about the future of a whole generation of young blacks? Not even the Congressional Black Caucus puts that ahead of maintaining political support from the teachers' unions.
Here and there isolated individuals within the Democratic Party have apparently let concern for the future of the next generation of blacks cause them to back off from their opposition to vouchers. The mayor of Washington, D.C., is one of these. So is Senator Dianne Feinstein of California.

One of the tragedies of the public schools is that they have become so enmeshed in bureaucratic rules and constrained by court decisions that they can do little to prevent a handful of classroom clowns and hoodlums from making it virtually impossible to educate other students in many ghetto schools.
Nor can public schools get rid of even a grossly incompetent teacher without administrative and legal processes that can drag on forever and cost tens of thousands of dollars. Public schools are also trapped in rigid hiring rules that keep out highly qualified people who have not suffered through enough mind-numbing education courses to be called "certified."

Private schools, and to some extent charter schools, escape these rigidities. Teachers' unions and others in the education establishment say that it is "unfair" that public schools have to compete with other institutions that do not have these and other bureaucratic and legal handicaps.

Fairness applies to people. Institutions are just means to an end -- serving people. If other institutions can get the job done better, then that is the way to go. Maybe vouchers and charter schools can give teachers' unions incentives to try to free the public schools from their handicaps, instead of trying to impose the same handicaps on other schools, in the name of "fairness."

The greatest unfairness today is denying a decent education to poor children, for whom that is often their only way out of poverty.
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Offline JBA

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2003, 11:33:06 AM »
So I get no response from you Clintonian democrat coolade drinkers.
I thought you were the party of the oppressed and minorities.

Way don't you call your legislatures and demand the relief the minorities students deserve.

O that’s right you need the special interest money to flow for re-election campaigns at the expense of 18% of the population.

And then you can have the issue to blam Repulicans, for not helping the Black population, because you know we're all "racist."

That way you might win the White House so you can pack the courts with leftist judges to pass laws the voters would never vote for.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target

Offline Udie

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2003, 12:56:33 PM »
deaf ears my friend.  They're too busy hating Bush to care about what's right for the country.....

Offline AKIron

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2003, 02:17:19 PM »
You're right, it's all about securing votes at any price.

It'd be fine by me if they gave vouchers only to those in areas with under performing schools. Everyone benefits even if we bring only some out of the quagmire of government dependence. Once proven successful beyond refute it should then be extended to all.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2003, 02:37:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JBA
So I get no response from you Clintonian democrat coolade drinkers.



Patience, Grasshopper, patience.
sand

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2003, 03:01:52 PM »
another good and accurate article JBA
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Offline Sandman

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2003, 03:26:47 PM »
I have trouble with the entire premise of this article. Last I checked, we parents of school aged children far outnumber the teachers.

I've also been doing some searching and I've found cases of Democrats that support vouchers. Likewise, I've found Republicans that do not.


The entire article is perfect for this BBS. Listen to a staement. Hypothesize on the reasons for the statement, and then ask everyone to argue with the hypothesis. It seems rather disjointed.
sand

Offline popeye

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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2003, 04:00:45 PM »
Yeah, I'll believe that Democrats pander to their campaign contributors.

But... Republicans are oblivious to politics, and are only interested in the welfare of poor minority children....?   Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

I suspect the Black vote, and the Catholic and Christian Right votes, as well as the contributions of those who see privatized primary education as a fantastic business opportunity, might influence the Republican view of vouchers.  Then, there's the sheer joy of antigovernmentism and union busting....
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Offline JBA

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2003, 08:52:58 PM »
Not enough discussion on this subject.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target

Offline MRPLUTO

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2003, 11:06:31 PM »
I never, ever want my tax dollars going to any religious school.  I will not pay to educate others that their religion is right and everyone else is wrong & going to hell.  How many conservative Christians would willingly fund a school teaching Satanism?

Also, I don't want tax dollars going to private schools while public schools remain under-funded & teachers' salaries far too low.

Furthermore, how would you answer someone who says, "I resent paying my tax dollars to send kids to a private school that I can't afford to send my own kids to.  And I'm not eligible for vouchers!"


MRPLUTO
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 11:13:19 PM by MRPLUTO »

Offline Twist

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2003, 01:29:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MRPLUTO
I never, ever want my tax dollars going to any religious school.  I will not pay to educate others that their religion is right and everyone else is wrong & going to hell.  How many conservative Christians would willingly fund a school teaching Satanism? MRPLUTO


Your not paying for it I am, I'm just asking not to be taxed on that money.

Quote
Originally posted by MRPLUTO

Also, I don't want tax dollars going to private schools while public schools remain under-funded & teachers' salaries far too low. MRPLUTO


Too late, I already send my kids to a private school, and I use my own money. Tax dollars and my money are the same thing up to 10.5 percent of last years income. I simply wish to choose how my little portion of those 'tax dollars' are spent.

Quote
Originally posted by MRPLUTO


Furthermore, how would you answer someone who says, "I resent paying my tax dollars to send kids to a private school that I can't afford to send my own kids to.  And I'm not eligible for vouchers!"
MRPLUTO


I would say I'm not spending any of your tax dollars, I'm spending some of mine. Sounds to me like the money I pay in to the federal tax system becomes someone elses to use as they see fit once it leaves my hand, and if I attempt in any way to use any of that money myself I am a callous SOB who doesn't feel sorry for the less fortunate.

This is simply a way for parents to have more choice in the education of their children. Vouchers will enable some of those less fortunate souls who can't afford private school tuition a chance to give their kids a better education in a place where religion is not a crime.

We all knew when this started it would be a long and lengthy battle to get this legislation through the system. Like it or not it will eventually happen. That's the thing about the majority in this country, we always get our way. :aok
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Offline lazs2

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2003, 08:46:07 AM »
gonna do my best to keep my grand daughter out of public schools.   The socialists will punish me tho.   Their idea of equality is that everyone suffers.
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2003, 09:18:19 AM »
Sandman_SBM: I have trouble with the entire premise of this article. Last I checked, we parents of school aged children far outnumber the teachers.

 The author - a first rank black economist schoolar (who's got his professorship before the Civil Rights Movement even started) - is one of the top intellects in this country and an utmost authority on the subject. Just check his list of books on economics, culture, race relations and politics. I own over half a dozen of them.

 The special intersts groups always have disproportionate share of political influence because their political interests are concentrated while the public political interest is diffused.

 Sugar growers's livelihood depends on trade protection, so they collect millions and lobby hard. That's why sugar in US costs four time as much as the world price. But since every household only loses a few dollars a month for it, it is not worth your time and money to form a lobby and be politically active - you would lose even if you won.

 Same with teachers and any other special interest group.


Knowledge and Decisions, a winner of the 1980 Law and Economics Center Prize, was heralded as a "landmark work" and selected for this prize "because of its cogent contribution to our understanding of the differences between the market process and the process of government."

 You see - it's only your unfamilarity with the must-know intellectual that made you accuse Tomas Sowel of presenting a "disjointed hypothesis". Of course it's not a compehencibe coverage of a subject. It's a tiny article. He has several big books on the subject. You want details and proofs rather than "hypothesizing"? Why don't you read a few of them.

"Knowledge and Decisions"

"Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One"

"Late-Talking Children"

"The Einstein Syndrome: Bright Children Who Talk Late"

"The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation As a Basis for Social Policy"

"A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles"

"Inside American Education"

"Race and Economics"

"Civil Rights : Rhetoric or Reality"

"The Economics and Politics of Race"

"Markets and Minorities"

"Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study"

"Black Education: Myths and Tragedies"


 44 books on Amazon, publications in scientific journals, also countless articles and essays published in the media.

 miko

Offline JBA

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2003, 09:23:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MRPLUTO

Also, I don't want tax dollars going to private schools while public schools remain under-funded & teachers' salaries far too low.
MRPLUTO


WRONG.

The US spent $750 Billion last year alone on students/schools from k-college. That’s an average cost of 10,540 per student.
Don't tell me schools are under funded. That’s Democrat demagoguery.
I might agree salaries are to low, but hay work 52 weeks, 2040 hours a year, like the rest of us, then I might vote for a raise. But as long as they have 2 months off and every frigging holiday conceived then they get what they work for.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target

Offline JBA

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Vouchers and votes
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2003, 09:25:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Sandman_SBM: I have trouble with the entire premise of this article. Last I checked, we parents of school aged children far outnumber the teachers.

 The author - a first rank black economist schoolar (who's got his professorship before the Civil Rights Movement even started) - is one of the top intellects in this country and an utmost authority on the subject. Just check his list of books on economics, culture, race relations and politics. I own over half a dozen of them.

   
Knowledge and Decisions, a winner of the 1980 Law and Economics Center Prize, was heralded as a "landmark work" and selected for this prize "because of its cogent contribution to our understanding of the differences between the market process and the process of government."

 You see - it's only your unfamilarity with the must-know intellectual that made you accuse Tomas Sowel of presenting a "disjointed hypothesis". Of course it's not a compehencibe coverage of a subject. It's a tiny article. He has several big books on the subject. You want details and proofs rather than "hypothesizing"? Why don't you read a few of them.

"Knowledge and Decisions"

"Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One"

"Late-Talking Children"

"The Einstein Syndrome: Bright Children Who Talk Late"

"The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation As a Basis for Social Policy"

"A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles"

"Inside American Education"

"Race and Economics"

"Civil Rights : Rhetoric or Reality"

"The Economics and Politics of Race"

"Markets and Minorities"

"Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study"

"Black Education: Myths and Tragedies"


 44 books on Amazon, publications in scientific journals, also countless articles and essays published in the media.

 miko



Miko,
I only site the best.:)
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target