Author Topic: AMD athelon 64fx  (Read 794 times)

Offline Waffle

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AMD athelon 64fx
« on: October 24, 2003, 05:59:19 AM »
Anyone seen / used these processors yet? Think they are fairly new.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112603,00.asp

Offline Rutilant

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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2003, 07:46:29 AM »
I wouldn't trust em not to explode.. I'll just run a dual pentium rig if i need to update.. there's your 64 bit right there ;)

Offline Waffle

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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2003, 09:06:13 AM »
Hmmm wonder how dual 64s would work......

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2003, 09:39:33 AM »
Athlon64 is the next generation of computing. It's explosive all right - it blows Intel away.

The cpu's have gone from 8-bit to 16-bit. 16-bit to 32-bit. Now the natural step will be 32-bit to 64-bit. Would you still prefer running an overclocked 486? That's kinda what you're doing with your 32-bit pentiums.

The innovative architecture of Athlon64 brings performance gains in many different ways, even with 32-bit code.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2003, 12:59:54 PM »
The fact the Athlon 64 and Athlon 64 FX can execute 64 bit code doesn't mean much at the moment, but regardless the Athlon FX Model 51 is the fastest (non-overclocked) x86 CPU on the market right now.  Unfortunately, its price reflects that. (Around $800)

The Athlon 64 is essentially an Athlon XP with some major improvements.  (On-die memory controller and SSE2 instruction support would be the biggest improvements over the Athlon XP.)

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2003, 01:37:51 PM »
The inclusion, alone, of SSE2 is going to go a long way in increasing performance.  Right now the P4+ATI combination have an edge over the AMD+ATI combination due to ATI's heavy use of SSE2 in the drivers.
I just hope they get solid chipset support for the new AMD CPU's.  That has, historically, been the only real issue with AMD.
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Offline bloom25

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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2003, 04:04:23 PM »
Skuzzy, about the SSE2 optimizations in the Catalyst drivers:  In the CPU benchmarks I've seen (previous to the Athlon 64) where benchmarks with both ATI and nVidia cards are present the Athlon XP typically did better with ATI cards than nVidia cards.  I'm sure there's some significant SSE2 optimizations there, because the Athlon 64 reviews using ATI 9800 Pros (Aces Hardware, Anandtech) showed a much bigger gain versus Athlon XP than than those reviews using 5900 Ultras (Tom's Hardware), but it looks like ATIs non-SSE2 Athlon XP codepath was not bad at all either.  

Realistically though, I'm wondering just how heavily a video driver can be SSE2 optimized.  (I wish I knew exactly what operations the video drivers are doing, but I'd assume it's primarily memory read and write operations.)  In the cases where SSE2 isn't used, the Athlon can dispatch 3 load/store ops plus 3 integer/fp ops (6 total) per clock versus the P4s 2 load/store and 2 int/fp (4 total).  If the P4 wasn't using SSE 2 instructions it would seem to be at a significant disadvantage to the Athlon on a per clock basis.

Regardless, adding SSE2 support (and actually adding 8 more SSE2 registers when in 64 bit mode) to the Athlon 64 was definately the right thing for AMD to do.  They were considering their own new SIMD instruction set for the Athlon 64.  SSE2 support gives the Athlon 64 an immediate performance boost in heavily P4 optimized applications.  I think from a gaming standpoint the on-die memory controller, which greatly reduces memory latencies, is probably just as important though.

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2003, 04:30:07 PM »
ATI currently uses 3DNow for AMD, so, no its not a bad code path, but I can easily see AMD's SSE2 implementation just mauling Intel's.

The SSE2/3DNow instructions are used quite heavily in DX9 applications, in conjunction with DX9's new async shader functions.  For DX8 games, it may not make a huge difference.
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Offline jonnyb

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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2003, 10:13:08 AM »
Another area where the 64 bit processors from AMD win is often overlooked.  That is in core clock speed.  Remember, the Athlon line brought about the new model numbers because the chips are not clock-for-clock with the Intel offerings.  The 64 bit processors are clobbering the Intel chips with a clock speed over a gigahertz slower.  Imagine how badly trounced the Pentiums would be were the FX51 running at 3.2 GHz...

SSE2, On-die memory controller, 64 bit pathways, better pipelines, more instructions per clock...the list goes on and on for the Athlon...

The downside to going the 64 bit route is the cost.  Currently, the highest P4 (the extreme edition) is comparable in cost to the FX51...however, you can slap that P4 into your current setup.  The 64 bit chip requires a new motherboard, and registered memory.

If you plan to go with the FX51, stay away from the nforce3 chipset.  There are some issues that need to be ironed out.  Currently the VIA K8T800 chipset is a better solution.  This will probably change as the nforce3 matures...

Offline AcId

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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2003, 12:55:17 PM »
Ofcourse a 64bit athlon is going to trounce an intel P*. But, has anyone compared it to IA-64? besides price, I know it's not really for PC's but you cant compare apples (32bit) to oranges (64bit). Also, in these 64bit tests are they using a true 64bit OS or is hardware emulating 32 to satisfy the code requirements?

It's about damn time we got 64bit architecture in PC's but these early "tests" (if you wanna call em that) got no leg to stand on without controlled comparisons between like hardware running software meant for the 64bit architecture.

Offline jonnyb

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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2003, 01:58:26 PM »
Comparing an Athlon64 to an Itanium is more apples to oranges than the Athlon64 to Pentium.  The reason is the instruction set.  Athlon/Pentium are x86 instruction sets, the ia-64 is not.

The real-world benefits we (consumers) will see from the Athlon64 line has nothing to do with the 64 bit architecture of the CPU.  This is because we predominantly have 32bit apps on a 32bit OS.  The Athlon64 provides on-die memory controller, better branch prediction, SSE2 instruction set.  It is here that the benefits of the Athlon64 are realized.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 02:05:11 PM by jonnyb »

Offline AcId

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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2003, 02:45:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by jonnyb
Comparing an Athlon64 to an Itanium is more apples to oranges than the Athlon64 to Pentium.  The reason is the instruction set.  Athlon/Pentium are x86 instruction sets, the ia-64 is not.

That I didnt realize, learn something new every day. Still apples and oranges no matter how you slice it then until intel releases a 64bit x86 cpu (blech). IA-64 aint bad though my only contact with it has been with 64bit Linux and HP-UX. What a difference in benchmarks all around. :eek: (on the Linux side that is, and not gaming related either). Guess that Alpha code aint all that bad afterall ;)
Quote


The real-world benefits we (consumers) will see from the Athlon64 line has nothing to do with the 64 bit architecture of the CPU.  This is because we predominantly have 32bit apps on a 32bit OS.  The Athlon64 provides on-die memory controller, better branch prediction, SSE2 instruction set.  It is here that the benefits of the Athlon64 are realized. [/B]


They will when winXP-64 can take advantage, until then it seems its just a beefed up x86 chip. *sigh* I'll be more excited when it all gets fleshed out and a bit of competition errupts. :D

Offline acetnt-2nd

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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2003, 02:51:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AcId
Ofcourse a 64bit athlon is going to trounce an intel P*. But, has anyone compared it to IA-64? besides price, I know it's not really for PC's but you cant compare apples (32bit) to oranges (64bit). Also, in these 64bit tests are they using a true 64bit OS or is hardware emulating 32 to satisfy the code requirements?

It's about damn time we got 64bit architecture in PC's but these early "tests" (if you wanna call em that) got no leg to stand on without controlled comparisons between like hardware running software meant for the 64bit architecture.


Absolutely no need to do this. The FX is designed with the gamer in mind - the benchmarks that you see use 32bit instructions. What you say quite wrong i.e. compare this processor to IA-64 - this makes little sense. A better comparison is comparing the opteron to this processor -- and then you'd have to do a price / perf comparison.

This processor does not compete with IA64 and was not designed to do so.......

That said -- it is currently the top performing chip in its class.......but still a little expensive for me - -- I am cheap :-)



My 2 cents

Acetnt

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2003, 12:55:30 AM »
Skuzzy, take a look at this Athlon 64 FX review.  The last few pages of this review actually test between the P4 3.2C and the FX 51 using BOTH an FX5900 Ultra and 9800 Pro.  It's interesting to note that in almost all cases the Athlon FX expands its lead versus the P4 when using the Radeon 9800 Pro 256.

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/cpu/article.php/3261_3082211__1

As for Intel vs AMDs SSE2 implementation, the Athlon 64 FX is a monster when it comes to scaler SSE2 performance, it doubles the score of the P4.  The P4 still manages a victory in vector SSE2 performance by some 25%.  That's pretty impressive considering the FX Model 51 runs a full 1 GHz slower than the 3.2 GHz P4.

I think some of you might want to look at this review:  http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000253  This is the only review I can find that actually runs tests that let you get a sense of the relative strengths of the P4 and Athlon 64 type CPUs.

I was thinking about writing about the Itanium compared to the Opteron/Athlon 64, but the two are so very different that would be difficult.  In a nutshell, the Itanium was the first CPU to make use of a very long word instruction set.  The IA64 instruction set is about as different as x86 as you will find.  The idea with Itanium is to execute as many tasks in parallel as possible.  The instruction set is especially well suited for this.  Unfortunately this approach also has drawbacks.  Probably the biggest drawback is the tremendous responsibility the software compiler has to properly optimize the assembled code to take advantage of the most functional units in the CPU as possible.  Since the Itanium runs at such a low clockspeed it must keep as many of its functional units busy executing parallel tasks as possible.  Some code, like floating point intensive mathematical software, really lends itself well to the Itanium.  (The Itanium leads in most of the SPEC FP tests.)Unfortunately a lot of code does not, especially the x86 software emulation the Itanium uses to run standard x86 software.  The top of the line Itanium can only run x86 software at about the level of a 450 MHz P2.  Another drawback is that the Itanium's architecture really limits clockspeed and uses up a lot of die space.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2003, 01:10:33 AM by bloom25 »

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2003, 04:18:01 PM »