thoughts on fighting 1 vs 2

[Citabria]

2 vs 1 has its obvious advantages lets discuss the 1 vs 2 and 1 vs many scenario...

1 vs 2 w more maneuverable plane...

1 vs 2 in b & z plane...

this is not an easy fight so lets hear everyones aproach to the situation.

[AKDejaVu]

Depends on my energy state and the location of the two aircraft.

It also depends on the agressiveness of the the two pilots.

I will say that if I'm in a cannon hog, my first pass will be with my nose pointed right at one of the two.  I force him to act first or take the HO.  My survivability in a 2:1 isn't that great... so I'll take the oportunity to get one of them.

If they are in relatively lightly armed aircraft (6 .50's is light IMO).  I'll let them try to drag me knowing that I can escape with a couple of pings from a p51.

Other than those desparation measures... I'd say I just try to stay fast.  Avoid going verticle and avoid target fixation.

AKDejaVu

[easymo]

 Fly a spit in easymode. HO anything that comes near you.

[minus]

well i em just a unskiled whine dweb
but hapaned 2 time when low  alone slow in G 10 and 2 C hog tryed to bounce me
they finiched all in flames
 G10 in vertical  realy can deal with C hogs they dont geting angle on u to shot and only vertical they usualy folow and after fiew lop they geting slow and then 3o mm work well  

[Vermillion]

Strange Deja, I do it almost exactly the opposite.

Lately (ie in 1.04) I fly either the Yak-9U for air to air, and the F4U-1C for ground attack/vulch.

Believe it or not, I fly 1 v 2 with or without a disadvantage in E the same in both planes. (lets assume that they have alt on me)

First I make sure I stay fast, at least 250, preferably 300.

As they come at me, I avoid the number one aircraft by staying under his nose, and then intentionally engage number two, usually going for the vertical lead turn.

So I wait till about 2.5k on #2 to begin pulling up like I'm going for the HO, so at this point his is pushing his nose down to get a shot at me. Then at about 700-500 yards, I pull hard into the vertical lead basically finishing my pullup into a loop or immelman.

I will try to continue to fight in the vertical, always concentrating on getting the #2 man first, so that I always have both of them towards the same side.

If they do get smart, and intentionally split apart, then you need to realize that its time to get out of dodge. For me the only aircraft faster than the two I fly are the Pony and the Typhoon, so if its anything else or only a single P-15/Tiffie, I look for the opportunity to take a last vertical/fake headon pass on the #2 man in the direction away from the #1 man,( at this point the #1 is seperating and splitting away a little to get a clear seperation from his partner so that he can get on my six when I chose which to engage)  and the #2 man will have to reverse 180 more degree's before he can start to chase you down.

If its a pair of faster aircraft, I will continue the vertical fight knowing that I have a good chance of getting one of them, since my aircraft is better in that type of fight and they will run me down if I try to escape.

At least thats how I have been doing it since 1.04 started.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[AKDejaVu]

The downside to your fight Verm.. is the assumption that both aircraft will engage.

While you are dodging one aircraft.. the other can simply be grabbing more e.  It is how I prefer to do a 2:1 engagement when I am with a wingman.  I'll wait for the enemy to go verticle on my wingman than I'll strike.

Its pretty effective.

Now.. as for a G10 with an E advantage.. that's another story

AKDejaVu

[Vermillion]

Right Deja, if the first one doesn't engage I immediately go into the vertical/fake HO with the first guy (preferably with my nose pointed within 90 degree's of the one grabbing) and then roll level as soon as we pass and then point my nose towards the other guy.

By this time the guy that did engage is behind you has to turn 180 degrees and then run down the distance between you, plus you should be even speed at this point or faster (if I'm flying the planes I fly). So the guy that is grabbing has to at least go 12 to 12 (HO) with you or give you a shot.

If he gives me a snapshot I will take it and then keep going straight without continuing to engage. So now either way they are both behind me and I am gonna run like hell  

Of course nothing is perfect, and this assumes that they don't have more than say 5k E advantage on you.  

And there is a counter to everything, but this is just what I try to do.  


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Swager]

I look for the best way to escape.  HO the nearest guy and head for my own ack!!!

Momma raise no fools!    

[Nath-BDP]

Umm... get the 2 gang-rapists that are trying to kill me to overshoot, its realy easy, especially in A8.

[bloom25]

Sometimes I get out of these situations by pretending to be unaware that I'm under attack.  First of all you need to be going pretty fast for this to work.  Now wait until the leader gets very close (d800 or so), at this point I'll break hard left-down, and then immediately back to the right and up. (Use some rudder to roll faster and bleed a little speed, forcing the overshoot hopefully.) If I do it correctly I can often manage a quick shot on the enemy by climbing faster than he can for just a split second.  Because he is traveling faster than me I can point my nose up much faster than he can.  Using the La5 I've managed to defeat two 2 vs 1 situations this tour.  The trick is the timing, if you break too quickly you end up right in front of the enemies guns at VERY short range.  If you do it right (fast rolling plane helps) you can get of a quick burst on the target at 300 yds or so.  With a cannon armed plane a quick burst like this will often make it a 1 vs 1 from that point on.

I'd probably say that this manuver is basically a snaproll.  If done correctly (would work best on planes that suffer control ineffectiveness at high speeds e.g. 109, spit, zero) you end up on the 6 of your opponent at close range.  The trick here is you better get a quick damaging burst of at this point, because the wingman will be making a pass at you himself very soon.

Last night I tried this in a 190a5 against a f4u and n1k.  The f4u made the first pass.  At d750 I began a roll to the left with rudder assistance.  I pulled for about a second, then continued rolling to the left as I pulled back up.  After doing this twice the F4u was d250 ahead of me.  Unfortunately I only managed a few MG hits (first sortie in the 190 in quite some time and I was having a hard time hitting with the 20mm).  About 5 seconds later the N1k was behind my now vertical airplane adding 20mm sized perforations.    The 190 can do this manuver SO easily because of it's wonderful roll rate and great elevator authority.  The trick is to bleed speed rapidly, forcing an overshoot, while jinking to avoid being hit.

The reason I like the la5 for this manuver so well is it combines high acceleration, climb, and roll.  (Unfortunately only up to 10k or so.)  Once you force the overshoot your acceleration and climb will allow you to stay on the 6 of the bandit.

I might have a film of the encounter in the 190 with the f4u and N1k.  If I find it I will post it.



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Jigster]

Very simple. The first guy think's he's safe. Quickly blow his tail off with a huge slip during the intial merge.

As the other guy wallows to the ground, quickly snap roll and spin until you lose 5k or so (or more if ya suck at recovery) let the guy come screaming down, get into a dead lock, spend 15 minutes jockying for position till it turns in to a 1 on 1 turn fight on the deck, get a lucky head on, and then gloat all night about how ya managed to win.

Least thats the way I heard it. Otherwise I lead the bastiges off, call in a few squaddies and try to get a few pings in before they kill 'em all.  

Being swift in the intial killing is the only way most of the time. divide and conquer, and all that jazz.

- Jig

[Rocket]

I fly F4U-1D.  In a 1vs2 I always try to make the first pass count.  If I can even it out on the first pass I have a chance to win.  I hope if not to take out one make him less manueverable if anything.  Never ever under any circumstances if you find yourself 1vs2 saddle up.  This is my biggest rule(and the one most broken   ).  I learned flying RB2 and DOA that if you saddle up you are dead. I fly totally defensive, twisting and turning, looking for quick snapshots to hurt them.  I have found the situation winable once and awhile.  
If they decide to play a total E game then it is time to look for an escape route and try to bug out and get a better advantage.

Summary:
1. Stay fairly fast
2. NEVER ever saddle up
3. Make first shot count
4. Twist and turn, be defensive
5. Settle for snapshots
6. Keep your eye on a way out

  My demise in 1 vs 2 is breaking my own rules by trying to get greedy and saddle up for a moment allowing #2 to get a good shot.

S!

Rocket

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VMF-115 Joe's Jokers-RD AH DIV
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________

 www.reddragons.de

[JENG]

1) Go for the quick kill on n° 1 but keep E up.
2) Don't saddle up...
3) Watch how they interact together... the worst 1vs2 is when one will go for your throat while the other is conserving E or gaining it. If I notice this situation I will try to find a way to get outa dodge...cause they probably are using RW and are tagteaming me  

My demise is the same as with rocket  ... getting in the 'give me 2 more secs and I'll have him' thinkmode  
Bee

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 09-24-2000).]

[Hangtime]

I work the high guy.. and keep E up. Staying in the fight depends on the plane type I'm up against..

If I can hold turn parity; I'll engage closely the near or higher A/C. It's usually easy to spot the diffrence between a chance couple flying in proximity from a skilled and practiced winged pair. So; a furious first attack will often shake out the opposition a bit and produce room for a fast 1v1. Split 'em then kill 'em.  

Obviously, oppositions skill is also a big part.. I look for mistakes to exploit.
Bear in mind the Prime Objective in 1 v 2 is to stay alive... so; if no mistakes are forthcomming and I miss that defection shot on my engaged enema and/or wind up with 1 on angles higher or faster than me.. I'll fold and get the hell outta dodge.  

I luv a parade. Drags can be fun too.  

Hang

[Zigrat]

heres your answer
 http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/film151.ahf

enjoy seeing how to fly this dweeby no skill plane, if you wanna kill in a 2on1 fly a nik. i felt greasy just from flying it, it might be worse than c hog