Author Topic: Best Fighter of all Time  (Read 2531 times)

Offline Kommandant

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« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2003, 03:40:27 AM »
No question about it, the YF-19 Excalibur is the best fighter of all time. Isamu Dyson out piloted the YF-22 in all tests... That and it is just a SEXY fighter... Now if the US government could make Veritechs that would transform... well ok so its not realistic for the reasoning, but it would still be something awesome to look foreward too.

Ok, I would have to go with the Su35 for Actual Fighters, but I have had something happen in all combat sims where I have gone up against them. The Russian Cobra Manuver where they will pull skyward, then fly backwards and down... Atleast thats what I think they are trying to do, not too sure... anyways I have unleashed missles at these beasts of the sky... and I hit them every damn time because when they try the Cobra Manuver, they present a much bigger target for my missile. I usually use the Sparrow because I like its range and speed.

Offline fffreeze220

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« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2003, 04:32:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
No question about it...



Hey midnight where is that picture from ???? DU u have more in bigger resolution ?????
Freeze

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2003, 05:11:00 AM »
Should have been the CF-105 Arrow.

It was 20 years ahead of eveything else.  :(





*sigh*

Offline fffreeze220

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« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2003, 09:33:34 AM »
None of the prototypes survived ?
Freeze

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2003, 10:17:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Should have been the CF-105 Arrow.

It was 20 years ahead of eveything else.  :(



*sigh*


In what way was it 20 years ahead of everything else?

CF-105 first flight: 1958

F-106 Delta Dart: 1956
F-4 Phantom: 1958
A-5 Vigilante :1958
YF-12: 1962 ( SR-71 1964)
F-111: 1964

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2003, 10:21:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fffreeze220
Hey midnight where is that picture from ???? DU u have more in bigger resolution ?????


Shamelessly stolen from Bud Anderson's web site.

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2003, 10:57:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Should have been the CF-105 Arrow.

It was 20 years ahead of eveything else.  :(


*sigh*


Perhaps not ahead of this baby though.... TSR2 Fighter/Attack/Bomber


NEXX

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2003, 11:27:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Artik, you're going to keep me up all night on this one :)



Mig-21PF
Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,355 mph (2,175 km/h) at 42,650 ft (13,000 m), Mach 2.05
at sea level: 800 mph (1,275 km/h), Mach 1.05  
Initial Climb Rate: 58,000 ft (17,680 m) / min
Service Ceiling: 57,400 ft (17,500 m)
Range  typical: 595 nm (1,100 km)
ferry: 970 nm (1,800 km)  
g-Limits: -4 / +8.5 (+7.5 sustained)


F-4 Phantom II
Max Level Speed  at altitude: 1,430 mph (2,300 km/h) at 36,000 ft (10,975 m), Mach 2.17
at sea level: 905 mph (1,450 km/h), Mach 1.19  
Initial Climb Rate: 28,000 ft (8,535 m ) / min  
Service Ceiling: 58,750 ft (17,905 m)  
Range  typical: 1,720 nm (3,185 km)
ferry: 2,000 nm (3,700 km)  
g-Limits: +8 (+6 sustained)

As you can see the Phantom is indeed slightly faster, however the Mig is more maneuverable an vastly superior in climb (almost twice the climb rate!).

 



These numbers are not correct,  you show a rate of climb for the F-4 at gross TO weight, and the -21 light.

The maneuverabilty advantage is small to the Mig and only in the middle of the speed envalope, F-4 beats it very fast and very slow.

The F-4 was a multy role fighter the Mig-21 was first designed as a fighter.

Kind of like compairing a full armed P-47 to a light La-7.

Mig was improved over time and like the F-104 it was designed to counter was relagated to a multirole mission.

http://www.starfighters.nl/

The Mig-21 was to fight the F-104 not the F-4

there is your match up!!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 11:40:27 AM by Scootter »

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2003, 10:27:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fffreeze220
None of the prototypes survived ?


There are rumours that one escaped.  Although the Arrow has almost attained mythological status up here.


"The CF-105 Avro Arrow was:

1) First a/c designed with digital computers being used for both aerodynamic analysis and designing the structural matrix (and a whole lot more).

2) First a/c design to have major components machined by CNC (computer numeric control); i.e., from electronic data which controlled the machine.

3) First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.

4) First a/c to have marginal stability designed into the pitch axis for better maneuverability, speed and altitude performance.

5) First a/c to have negative stability designed into the yaw axis to save weight and cut drag, also boosting performance.

6) First a/c to fly on an electronic signal from the stick and pedals. i.e., first fly-by-wire a/c.

7) First a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even the first F-16's had this.

8) First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.

9) First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.

10) First high wing jet fighter that made the entire upper surface a lifting body. The F-15, F-22, Su-27 etc., MiG-29, MiG 25 and  others certainly used that idea.

11) First sophisticated bleed-bypass system for both intake AND engine/exhaust. Everybody uses that now.

12) First by-pass engine design. (all current fighters have by-pass engines).

13) First combination of the last two points with an "ejector" nozzle that used the bypass air to create thrust at the exhaust nozzle while also improving intake flow. The F-106 didn't even have a nozzle, just a pipe.

14) Use of Titanium for significant portions of the aircraft structure and engine.

15) Use of composites (not the first, but they made thoughtful use of them and were researching and engineering new ones).

16) Use of a drooped leading edge and aerodynamic "twist" on the wing.

17) Use of engines at the rear to allow both a lighter structure and significant payload at the centre of gravity. Everybody copied that.

18) Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)

19) Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)

20) First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.

21) First flying 4,000 psi hydraulic system to allow lighter and smaller components.

22) First oxygen-injection re-light system.

23) First engine to have only two main bearing assemblies on a two-shaft design.

24) First to use a variable stator on a two-shaft engine.

25) First use of a trans-sonic first compressor stage on a turbojet engine.

26) First "hot-streak" type of afterburner ignition.

27) First engine to use only 10 compressor sections in a two-shaft design. (The competition was using 17!!)"

http://www.avroarrow.org/arrowfirsts.asp


"Before giving the green light to Avro, the RCAF sent a top level evaluation team to assess all the countries in the Western alliance to find out if anyone was working on a craft that met their requirements. No one was. The Arrow was to be a twin-engined aircraft with a crew of two, a supersonic interceptor to destroy any enemy threat in the next decade or beyond, and was expected to fulfill a grueling performance specification issued by the RCAF in 1953.

It was a spec that Jim Floyd, Vice President of Engineering at Avro Canada's Malton headquarters and the man responsible for the development of the Arrow, described as "overkill". It called for a manoeuvre capability of at least 2 G at Mach 1.5 at 50,000 feet at full weight with all combat missiles aboard. This daunting list of requirements, which can scarcely be exceeded by combat aircraft today, was the reason the Arrow was to be powered by enormous engines especially designed for it, and had to stow all missiles inside for maximum drag reduction.

The Arrow was designed as a delta winged craft without a tail plane, an "inevitable compromise between aerodynamic, structural and aerolastic efficiency," as Floyd put it. The range of the new craft was specified at 200 nautical miles, which included five minutes of combat.at Mach 1.5. Avro, however, considered this too little, and designed the aircraft for ranges of up to a 650 n.m. radius. A subsequent reconnaissance version of the Arrow was planned which would have a range of 2000 n.m.

 While Avro's Gas Turbine Division (later to become Orenda Engines) was working on the powerful Iroquois engine that was to be used on the Mark 2 series, test flights went underway using an interim engine, the Pratt and Whitney J75 engine. When test flights began, the craft easily met all guarantees, according to Jack Woodman, the RCAF evaluation pilot assigned to the project. By the third test flight it broke the speed of sound, eventually reaching speeds as high as Mach 1.98.

With the new Iroquois engine, which delivered considerably more power, the Arrow was expected to break world speed records. Indeed, projected versions of the plane were to go as fast as Mach 3. But on the 20th of February, 1959, days before the new Mark 2 series bearing the Iroquois engine was about to be tested, the bad news broke -- the Arrow was to be cancelled."

http://exn.ca/FlightDeck/Aircraft/Milestones/avroarrow.cfm


"Perhaps not ahead of this baby though.... TSR2 Fighter/Attack/Bomber"

My apologies Nexx, I'm unfamiliar with that aircraft.  I'll check it out.

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2003, 11:04:54 AM »
Interesting debate, good rational discussion most of the time except for Grunherz (On Probation) who managed to descend to the schoolyard level again!:lol  


In the modern era, the F15 is up there but it has to be said much of modern air warfare that superiority of one aircraft over another was as much to do with training and E3 as much as the airframe itself. Israel's pilots were so much better than thier Arab neighbours but even they nearly became unstuck when the technology game was upped by the Arabs in the 1973 war. The problem is that in recent years one side had overwhelming superiority over the other. It would be interesting if two comparable sides went to war with modern fighters. India and Pakistan spring to mind, not that I would wish a war between them to settle this argument;)


I still maintain my original opinion, the Spitfire and P51. Both were war winners and if you strictly keep to the notion of Fighters  they are 'sans pareil'.  The CF105 doesn't count as it never flew as such, but it's Canada's TSR2. Both still raise the hackles in their respective countries.

I think the Malta campaign proves it again for the Spit. At times only a few Spitfires were available to fight off axis raids yet they managed to hold on and outfought hordes of 109's etc. You can hardly say that RAF pilots were that much better than their Luftwaffe counterparts at that time in the middle of the war. So it must be the aircraft. I'll stick with the Spit.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2003, 11:10:25 AM by cpxxx »

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2003, 11:44:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
Interesting debate, good rational discussion most of the time except for Grunherz (On Probation) who managed to descend to the schoolyard level again!:lol  


In the modern era, the F15 is up there but it has to be said much of modern air warfare that superiority of one aircraft over another was as much to do with training and E3 as much as the airframe itself. Israel's pilots were so much better than thier Arab neighbours but even they nearly became unstuck when the technology game was upped by the Arabs in the 1973 war. The problem is that in recent years one side had overwhelming superiority over the other. It would be interesting if two comparable sides went to war with modern fighters. India and Pakistan spring to mind, not that I would wish a war between them to settle this argument;)


I still maintain my original opinion, the Spitfire and P51. Both were war winners and if you strictly keep to the notion of Fighters  they are 'sans pareil'.  The CF105 doesn't count as it never flew as such, but it's Canada's TSR2. Both still raise the hackles in their respective countries.

I think the Malta campaign proves it again for the Spit. At times only a few Spitfires were available to fight off axis raids yet they managed to hold on and outfought hordes of 109's etc. You can hardly say that RAF pilots were that much better than their Luftwaffe counterparts at that time in the middle of the war. So it must be the aircraft. I'll stick with the Spit.



I also agree the Spit was a world class design, it was a pure interceptor and designed without compromise as such.

The BF-109 was also a pure air to air design and shared the strengths and weakness of this design, namely short legs and low payload capability.

The 51 had a high alt and long range requirement like the 47 and this took away from its air to air capability (esp. when heavy) but its heavy load capability gave it a greater air to ground role.

All designs had pluses and minuses inherent in the airframe, this is why it is hard to compare side by side. The ability to do many roles well is a more useful design when it works well. The requirements of the Navy added to the compromise and further compromised their designs. The F8 is an example of a full on fighter with no air to ground in the plane. The design of the F-15 actually had the slogan "not a pound for air to ground" until of course the F-15E came along.

The old what is better argument must have a set of perimeters built into the discussion or it gets gray fast.

How about these questions?

1. What is the best Air to Air interceptor for short-range air defense from 1940 to 1942 and also from 1943 to 1945 (two-part question)?

2. What is the best multi role fighter for ground attack and then air to air on the way out is considered? (Same two time frames as above)

3. What is the best long-range escort fighter? (Same time frames)

4. What is the best dog fighter (knife fight) with no concern for air to ground but range is a factor. (same time frames)

Now do the above for today's aircraft


 :aok

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2003, 02:39:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by artik
You know try to figure out what is best plane from this planeset:

the best of nonperked AH planes:

P51D
190D-9
109G10
La7

What is best fighter plane? :lol
Stop kidding yourself the good planes could be different but best - every one will have some weak sides and some strong sides as in this planeset I show:

P51D - very fast - slower then 190 at low alt but climbs better and turns much better then 190, fire power not the best, best views, good contolable plane

190D-9 fastest at atitudes below 10k - worster turner - worst climber, best roller

109g10 fastes above 10k best climber - worstes diver every one outdives it, hard to control for less expirienced pilots, very low roll ratio

La7 - best turn, climber, speed, accelertion - but below 8k after it very week

As you see every one could be bitten at some situations but... all quite close

So what is the best plane?

We can talk what are best planes but..... not the best one



It's really hard to say what was the best plane in WW2.  The P-51 and P-47 excelled in the ETO but didn't do as good in the PTO.  The P-38 only had marginal success in the ETO but excelled in the all other theaters and in the PTO was the most dominate USAAF fighter.  The majority of the USAAF aces in the PTO flew the P-38 and only a handful were P-51 and P-47 pilots.  

So in the ETO the P-51 and the P-47 can be argued that they were amongst the best but the same can't be said of their service in other theaters.

ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2003, 02:45:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Replicant
The Spitfire Mk.I was superior to the Hawker Hurricane Mk.I but during the Battle of Britain, the Hurricane was faster to rearm, quicker to refuel (allowing more sorties) and along with greater numbers the Hurricane got more kills than the Spitfire Mk.I


The Hurricane got more kills not because of the numbers fielded but because of the tactics employed by the RAF during the BoB.  The Hurricanes were tasked to go after the bombers while the Spitfires were tasked to engage the fighters.  German bombers were shot down in greater numbers than German fighters.


ack-ack
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Offline Replicant

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« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2003, 03:05:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The Hurricane got more kills not because of the numbers fielded but because of the tactics employed by the RAF during the BoB.  The Hurricanes were tasked to go after the bombers while the Spitfires were tasked to engage the fighters.  German bombers were shot down in greater numbers than German fighters.


ack-ack


Whether it was fighters or bombers is irrelevent, since I was talking about kills - the Hurricane did get more kills than the Spitfire during the BoB.

During the BoB, the number of Hurricanes were roughly double that of the Spitfire.  Can't find exact rearm/refuel times but the Spitfire took at least 10-15 minutes longer than the Hurricane to refuel/rearm.
NEXX

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2003, 03:11:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
Most of the advantages possessed by the Mig-21 had alot more to do with GCA intercept radar and US ROE than intrinsic
superiority.

     One thing alot of folks seem to be forgetting is that the Migs
have no legs.  In fact two 21s were lost when F4s forced them
out to sea and they were forced to ditch.

     Starting with the E model Phantom, the guns were vastly
superior to the Mig weapon fit.  The missiles were hampered
by the restrictive rules of engagement, for example visual
comformation was required before firing...kinda takes away
the BVR advantage of the Sparrow.

      Push comes to shove though, the F4-Mig21 fight alot like
the 109-51 fight.  One is short ranged, small and designed for
the fighter role, the other is a big monster that isn't.

     Rino


Along these same lines, didn't the MiG-21 lack a radar-guided missile system?  I recall reading that the Vietnamese MiG-21s were heat-seeking-missile-capable only, whereas the US Phantoms had both Sidewinders and Sparrows.  Same goes for the F8E Crusaders.  I may be wrong, though.  Most of my missile knowledge comes from "Jane's Fighters Anthology".