Author Topic: not trying to stir up trouble but..  (Read 1879 times)

Offline ply

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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2003, 09:19:11 AM »
I knew somewhere there was a page on this

http://www.spanishcastle.com/justplanefun/hollywood.html

Offline Sarge

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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2003, 11:22:09 AM »
on the history channle yesterday they had a program on the bf109. there i seen a spit chasing on and when the plane was straight the tracer smoke trail was straight as soon as it started to turn any the spirals were just like the ones in AH2 , so the tracers did spiral. i waitied to see a show that sgowed that before i posted any more on tracers. so they do spiral like that. well tracers rounds are a little different than regular rounds to and that may have something to do with waythe bullets act to.

Offline Ecliptik

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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2003, 12:54:04 PM »
Tracer smoke does form a spiral - the round is spitting out phosphorus smoke while spinning rapidly.  The catch is, the smoke disperses far too quickly on .30 and .50 calibre rounds for the effect to be visible.  It's most visible on large diameter rounds.  For 20 mm cannon rounds, there would be a visible spiral for just a fraction of a second before the smoke would diffuse into a straight, blurry line.  30 mm rounds show the effect best, the spiral lasts a little longer.  

It also depends on what type of tracer is being used.  Some leave trails, some don't.  Some types of tracers only illuminate the bullet itself and don't leave visible trails.

IL-2 does the effect very well.  AHII doesn't, because it isn't a particle effect, it just looks like a series of cylindrical polygons using textures with transparencies, so the spiral lasts forever, and doesn't look very good.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2003, 12:57:01 PM by Ecliptik »

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2003, 12:58:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sarge
on the history channle yesterday they had a program on the bf109. there i seen a spit chasing on and when the plane was straight the tracer smoke trail was straight as soon as it started to turn any the spirals were just like the ones in AH2 , so the tracers did spiral. i waitied to see a show that sgowed that before i posted any more on tracers. so they do spiral like that. well tracers rounds are a little different than regular rounds to and that may have something to do with waythe bullets act to.



Indeed tracers do become less stable as the material that burns in them is consumed. They weigh less at first then regular bullets and then change as they burn. A bullet is stabilize by the spin rate of the rifling (twist) and that is a designed around the length of the bullet and the weight. Tracers in larger cal. weapons would not be as accurate or fly in the same trajectory as the ball ammo.

I think the spin we are seeing is a bit over done from what I have seen from the M-2 .50 cal firing with tracers on a mount. I have seen what you are describing on Wings channel and think it may be both the vibration and some instability in the tracers. I think the barrels in some of the AC near the end of the war were shot out and were very sloppy but that is just a feeling.

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2003, 02:18:21 PM »
This could be just on my end but, as i gunned the 7,9mm from the panzer, the trac ers looked like twirling ribbons.  It was a helix with a radius coefficient of about 6 inches or more.  This is not possible cuz the bullet would have to traverse that path also.

Offline jodgi

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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2003, 03:55:18 PM »
They'll get it right.

I found that the tracers improved in patch 1 (looked less unreal).
They're still working on it...

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2003, 04:00:21 PM »
Yea..i know they'll get it right, they always do.  But I hope they put a little priority here cuase these things suck the frames right out of my system.

  With tracers enabled

p51b sitting on the runway  60fps not firing
                                             12 fps firing for 10 seconds

With tracers disabled
                                         
          p51b sitting on the runway  60fps not firing
                                                       47 fps firing for 10 seconds

Stock sounds for both.

Just me or anybody else get this phenomonnena

Offline bod

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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2003, 05:58:06 PM »
If you fire parallel to the direction of motion, or if you fire when not mooving, the projectiles will be stable (at least in theory). But i think if you fire at an angle of attack the projectiles will spiral due to lift and centrifugal forces on the projectile.

Besides, why would (and how would) the gun camera make a perfect circlular movement only on the tracers, and not on the target, or clouds or ground?



 :)

Offline Furious

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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2003, 06:28:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WhiteHawk
...It was a helix with a radius coefficient of about 6 inches or more.  This is not possible cuz the bullet would have to traverse that path also.


Not so.  Think about the vortex created by the bullet's motion and spin.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2003, 07:34:14 PM »
Just.. put spiral smoke at rounds over 20mm.. and let the 7.7mm~15mm rounds have faint, more straight smoke.. and that's the end of that.

 The spirals don't look that bad when you fire them from 109s, but seeing 6 spirals on P-51s.. that, looks a bit funky.

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2003, 09:32:00 PM »
Have you ever seen one of those goofy looking tracers from an anti-aircraft gun, when the camera was at an offset, i.e. not attached to the firing platform?  No, you haven't, no matter if it is .307 or 88mm, and you won't, because it is a photographic artifact, not a representation of the flight of the projectile.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2003, 06:02:34 AM »
http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy.htm

go here abd watch these films,

The 50 cals certainly didnt have this type of tracers effect, otoh lw guncams always show lotsa smoke. Sometimes in good spirals sometimes not.

But this is beside the point because if you read hts post you wouldnt really have much to say about the current tracers.

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2003, 09:16:24 AM »
WHO CARES?!?!
Just let the guys build the game the way they want to build it! After all no matter what you guys say thats what they will do in the end anyway.

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2003, 10:37:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Coolridr
WHO CARES?!?!
Just let the guys build the game the way they want to build it! After all no matter what you guys say thats what they will do in the end anyway.



This forum is for comments and suggestions about AH2, and that’s what we are doing.

You must be new to think, "they will do what they want". I have found HTC not only values our input but uses a surprising amount of our suggestions in the SIM.


So to answer your question about "who cares"

1. We do (those of us in this post)
2. HTC does
3. Most of the players to some extent care about the game


One final point, our comments here in no way stop them from building the game.


As my grandmother used to say " who the heck died and left you boss"


Regards:

Offline Bullethead

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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2003, 11:09:12 AM »
My thoughts on the tracer smoke spirals....

At first I thought having any smoke trail was incorrect for the late-war period that AH mostly handles, at least in the MA.  I didn't recall seeing any smoke in guncam films from later than about 1941.  But with this issue being discussed a lot now, I've gone back and looked at all the film I could find and now see that smoke was indeed visible in most of them--I had just not noticed it before.  So, it now becomes a question of how accurately AH2 duplicates it.

I disagree with folks saying the spiral effect is an artifact of vibration, basically a blur effect.  This cannot be true because any such blurring would be caused by small, rapid changes in the angle of the camera relative to the line of flight.  The effects of such angular changes would be amplified by distance, so things further away would be blurred more than closer things.  IOW, if the vibration theory was true, you would see tracer trails as expanding cones getting wider the further away the bullet got, and the target itself would be a large smear.  However, this is not the case.  In the films (especially late-war films of pretty high quality), the target is often very clear, yet still the tracers going to it have the spiral, which becomes less and less obvious the further away the bullet gets.  Thus, it seems that the spiral effect was indeed caused by phosphorous bits being thrown off in different directions as the bullet rotated.

Another bit of evidence in support of the twists in the trail being real things, as opposed to being vibration artifacts, is the observation that trails are more visible when the firing plane is turning.  This is because during turns, you're seeing the trails more from above as opposed to mostly end-on.  Thus, the kinks in the trail are individually visible against the background, instead of masking each other.

So, AH2's basic idea of having spirals come off tracers is correct, but I think we all agree that it does not look much like what we see in films.  AH2's trails look like rail gun trails from Quake 2 or other sci-fi FPS games, being thin, distinct ribbons wrapped around an invisible cylinder about 1 foot wide.  OTOH, the trails I see in films are transluscent "solid" cylinders with twisted ridges on the outer surface.  They look like ropes made of smoke.  If AH2's trails could somehow be made to look more like ropes of smoke than white ribbons wrapped around an invisible cylinder, the overall effect would be much improved.

The only similarity between the film trails and AH2's trails is that the twists in the films have about the same frequency as spirals in AH2.  At the Con this summer, HT told me that he based his spiral frequency on the rifling of the real guns.  That this closely matches the twists in the film is further evidence that the twisting of the smoke trails in the films was caused by the rotation of the bullet, not the vibration of the camera.

OK, that's it for general appearance.  However, there is still the issue of how often the trails should be seen.  This seems to me a much more difficult issue.  From looking at lots of films from the whole war, trails seem to get less and less common as the war went on.  And when seen later in the war, the trails are much less distinct (so that I wasn't noticing them at first).  In addition, not all tracers in the same film leave trails, and what trails there are often only cover part of the bullet's path.  And sometimes, they only become visible long after the bullet has gone by.  However, this is only a general trend--there are many exceptions that seems to do with the caliber of the weapon and its nationality.  And in my own experience with 80s-90s US and USSR weapons on the range and in combat, I never saw (or noticed) any trails at all.

It seems to me that as the war went on, there was a general trend toward smokeless tracers.  In BoB films, you see scads of trails (8x.303s), but by 44-45 you hardly ever see them and when you do they're usually almost invisible.  German films seem to retain the most trails in total, and they're the most visible, throughout the war.  This could be due to their use of more and larger cannon than the Allies.  

So why are late-war trails so erratic, not being seen for all tracers, nor the full path when present, and sometimes appearing rather late?  Perhaps some of this stemmed from manufacturing defects in what were supposed to be smokeless tracer elements.  Sometimes, an improperly made element might smoke, or have small areas in it that would smoke, so you'd get occasional trails, sometimes interrupted.  The late-appearing trails, however, must be some contrail-like effect, perhaps as water nucleated on ash particles once they'd cooled down sufficiently.  I don't know.