Were the Finns really “Axis”?

[eskimo2]

Sure they flew German planes and received German aid.  But they also flew US, British, Swedish and even Russian planes.  Unlike Germany, Italy, and Japan; Finland was not invading neighboring countries in order to gain land and power.  They were defending their own country from Russian invasion.  Had Russia not attacked them, would they have conspired with the Germans?  My guess is that they would have preferred isolation from the war.  Surly if Germany would have invaded Finland they would have put up a fight.

In the CT Finland Vs. Russia set-ups, it doesn’t seem right to refer to the Finns as Axis.  It also does not seem right to refer to the Russians as Allies.  I don’t think that the “Allies” condoned Russia’s attack on Finland.

Its just semantics, but I don’t think that there are Axis or Allies in this set-up.

How do historians and history books view the Finns?

eskimo

[Curval]

I'm no expert, but based on my, albeit very limited, knowledge I tend to agree with you.

[brady]

They were Co-Belegerent's, they had a common enemy the Russians.

 They were not Axis, in fact when Finland and Russia signed the peace treaty at the end of the war the German units that had been fighting with them aganst the Russians were given the boot and sorta left out to dry, I remember reading one account of of a Gibersjager unit in the North that had a particulary had time of it do to this they had to cross Northern Finland and get to Norway with the Reds on their heals even though they were in Finland.

 It is difficult for me to think of the Russians as Allies since they were so freaking Brutal and realy no better than Germany in many ways, I tend to think of the Soviet's as Co Belergents with us aganst the Axis, even though tecnicly they are Allies.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by brady
They were Co-Belegerent's, they had a common enemy the Russians.

But were the Finns axis?

eskimo

[brady]

Read avove I expounded.....

[Arlo]

Excerpts from a site I ran across (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/FINNLIV.HTM):

The story of the survival of Finland as a free nation begins in the forests of Eastern Finland's Karelia province, between the shores of the Gulf of Finland and the Arctic Ocean. It is about the historical epic life and death struggle of a tiny country against the "Evil Empire." The truth behind the November 30, 1939 Soviet attack is now becoming plain: it was nothing more than an attempt to annex Finland. From the author's point of view, and now from a point fact as more evidence surfaces, the war was Russia's fault, and the harsh terms of peace were the fault of the Allies and the victim of aggression was Finland, along with numerous other countries. Whether you are of the opinion that Russia had legitimate territorial claims or not, the undeniable facts are that Russia's goals were the same in Finland as in the other Baltic nations. As in the previous 1000 years, Russia wanted greater access to the Baltic and Atlantic Ocean. Therefore Finland is innocent of all charges, and it is time for compensation: the return of Karelia and the indemnity unjustly levied on the people.


Roosevelt wanted to keep Stalin on his side to help defeat Hitler, but also to finish off Japan in Manchuria because the atomic bomb could not be relied upon. In order to sway public opinion to support his friend Stalin, it was necessary for Roosevelt to convince the American public that Stalin was no longer the Communist bogey-man he used to be. He was good now, and he should get aid. All Stalin wanted was to "defend the fatherland," that was it. However, this delusion was to be Roosevelt's undoing, for Stalin did not separate the military from the political. Stalin's defense policy was two sided: one defense, the other aggression - just another round in the battle between Communism and "Imperialism."

The agreement that the Grand Alliance signed did not allow for a separate peace with any country[/b], which was perfect for Stalin. When Churchill made overtures to Stalin about the possibility of Finland being pulled out of the war in 1943, Stalin just reminded him of their deal that they must all agree to such a move. The wording of the alliance, and FDR's unwillingness to help countries attacked by Stalin, sealed Finland's fate. A separate peace may have saved Karelia, but Stalin's plan was to deal with Hitler, then attack the Finns with overwhelming strength of arms acquired in the Lend Lease deal on D-Day.


In any war where Britain and United States sides with Russia, the countries Russia preys upon become enemies by default.

Churchill writes in his book The Hinge of Fate, page 751 that Premier Stalin turned down Roosevelt's offer to take Finland out of the war:


Premier Stalin to Premier Churchill: Mar 15, 1943

On March 12 the American Ambassador, Admiral Standley, on behalf of the U.S. Government, conveyed to Mr. Molotov the following message:

"The Government of the U.S. offers its good offices as intermediary between the U.S.S.R. and Finland in order to explore the possibility of a separate peace."

On Mr. Molotov's question whether the American Government has information that Finland desires peace and what is her real position, Admiral Standley replied that he cannot say anything on the matter. As is well known, the Anglo-Soviet Treaty of May 26, 1942, stipulates that our countries cannot negotiate on the conclusion of a separate peace with Germany or her Allies otherwise than by mutual agreement.


The Causes, Events, and Repercussions of the Russo-Finnish War
by Stephen Payne

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warfin1.html?

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by eskimo2
Had Russia not attacked them, would they have conspired with the Germans?

Chronology is important here.  The Russo-Finnish war was long over before Germany invaded Russia on 6/22/41.  Finland and Russia were at peace.  So...unless the Finns intended to make common cause with the Germans...how did the Germans get into Finland?

Interested to read Kanttori's point of view.

- oldman

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Oldman731
Chronology is important here.  The Russo-Finnish war was long over before Germany invaded Russia on 6/22/41.  Finland and Russia were at peace.  So...unless the Finns intended to make common cause with the Germans...how did the Germans get into Finland?

Interested to read Kanttori's point of view.

- oldman

But we are now fighting "FIN/RUS: CONTINUATION WAR 1943 "???

I actually read a book about the Finish Air Force in WWII.  When I finished the book I think that I was more confused than before I started.

Very strange war.

eskimo

[Arlo]

Still, to the dismay and chagrin of the Russians, Soviet attacks were stalled and in places thrown back with great casualties. Encirclement battles were fought along the few roads leading from the long Finnish border inland.

In several of these battles, whole Soviet divisions were dominated and their equipment was captured (crucial to the otherwise ill and under-equipped Finnish armed forces). Main contributors to these victories were the fighting spirit of the Finnish troops and the skillful use of small unit tactics in the forests on the road-bound attackers.

 The Finns, realizing that the Soviets were relying on superior numbers alone to win the war, engaged in harassment warfare, costing the Russians dearly, while suffering relatively few losses themselves. However, lack of artillery, ammunitions and reserves for the Finns made the breaching of the main defensive line inevitable.

Finland, of course, realized that it could not hold against such overwhelming strength, and actively sought diplomatic means to end the war. The Russians, foreseeing such a turn of events, had set up a puppet "Democratic Republic of Finland" government, and refused to recognize the legitimate government, saying that they had fled to an unknown destination.

This People's Government of the Democratic Republic of Finland, "headed" by Finnish old-guard communist Otto Kuusinen, in fact had no real duties other than the publication of a newspaper and propaganda. That, and to carry on the illusion of being a legitimate government, in order to allow the Soviets to not lose credibility altogether for not negotiating. By only recognizing the puppet government, the Soviets could reject all proposals of peace talks, saying that


'the Soviet Union is not at war with Finland and does not threaten the Finnish people.
The Soviet Union maintains peaceful relations with the Democratic Republic of Finland.
The [Helsinki government is] not the real representatives of the people of Finland' 7

Because of this puppet government, all routes the Finns attempted to take to peace were blocked by the Russians. The Finns attempted to use the Swedes, the Americans, and the Germans as mediators, but the Russians ignored their cries for peace. Having those avenues blocked, the Finns next appealed to the League of Nations, where again they were given the same response. In the League of Nations, however, the Russians were harshly criticized for their actions. Nations not under the sphere of influence of the USSR were quick to proclaim that they were sickened by the abuse of power displayed by Russia.

So, for a time, the fighting went on, with no hope of a peaceful resolution in sight. After Finland had beaten back the first attacks, the Soviet Union changed the commanders leading the attack as well as the tactics employed by the army. Utilizing their absolute superiority in air power, artillery, and tanks, as well as sheer manpower, the Soviet attack gradually wore down the Finnish defense, forcing the Finns to withdraw to secondary defense lines.

On the Karelian isthmus the fighting resembled more of the First World War massive frontal attacks than the fluid encirclement battles fought elsewhere on the fronts. Both sides were suffering heavy losses, especially the Finns, as the fighting grew more fierce and widespread. Finally, near the end of January, Russia stated that it was not "opposed to concluding an agreement with the Ryti-Tanner government," and if the Finns made "adequate proposals,"  then they would indeed enter into negotiations yet again. Clearly, the swing in policy from ignoring the legitimate government to recognizing it was not a factor of the military situation. It can therefore only be attributed to the general world view of the situation.

Countries everywhere condemned Russia, actively sought peace, and in many cases, supplied aid to Finland. Sweden and Italy provided both equipment and volunteers, and the United States provided over one million dollars in aid. In addition to the three listed above, countless other nations rushed to the aid of Finland. The Allies (France, Britain, etc.), were in fact seriously considering coming to the aid of Finland militarily by "invading" Finland and fighting off the Russians.

With news of possible Allied activity spreading, Germany began putting heavy pressure on the Soviets to make peace, for an Allied presence in Scandinavia would pose a serious threat to the Third Reich. The pressure of Germany, the knowledge that a supposed week long conflict had turned into a Europe-wide war against Russia, and with world opinion turned sharply against them, the Russians had little choice but to reenter into negotiations.

On January 29, 1940, the Russians stated that they would reopen negotiations if the Finns would meet their original demands. The Finns, however, heartened by their unexpected "success" against Russia, and the promise of Allied military aid, stated that they would not make far-reaching concessions. The Allies were wholly ready to come to the aid of Finland, stating that Finland need only to request their aid. This created a very delicate situation for the Finns. In order for the Allied troops to reach Finland, they would have to transport through Norway and/or Sweden. Norway and Sweden, however sympathetic to Finland they were, would not allow this to happen for one reason.

The Germans, wary of an Allied presence in Scandinavia, warned that any "small nation, which under the circumstances now comes to Finland's aid will suffer the fate of Poland." 9 This threat was clearly aimed at Norway and Sweden, and it proved rather effective. Both Sweden and Norway denied the Allies the right to transport troops through their territory. With the hope of foreign military aid gone, the Finnish situation worsened, and Finland was just barely able to hold the front. Seeing that they were fighting a losing battle, the Finnish government informed the Russians that they were ready to enter into negotiations on March 6, 1940.

The Allies were greatly dismayed at this, for to them, peace on Russian terms meant victory for German diplomacy. No amount of pressure the Allies applied on Finland, Norway, and Sweden, however, could match the immense pressure on the Finns from Norway, Sweden, Russia, and Germany. By this token, the acceptance of Soviet terms of peace was almost accepted as fact. The conditions of the treaty hardly differed from those which Moscow had demanded before the outbreak of hostilities. The terms of the treaty state that



the entire Karelian isthmus with the city of Viipuri, the whole of Viipuri Bay with its islands,
as well as the territory west and north of Lake Ladoga with the cities of Keksholm and
Sorrtavala, were ceded to Soviet Russia. . . . In the region of Kandalaksha the border was also
moved farther west, and parts of the Rybachi and Sredni peninsulas and a number of the islands
in the Gulf of Finland were handed over to the Soviet Union.  

In addition to those demands, the treaty also established the 30 year lease on the Hanko peninsula, for which the Finns were compensated eight million Finnish marks. As stated in the earlier demands, the Russians had the right to establish a naval base and garrison troops, along with any armed forces deemed necessary.

Finland was also banned from maintaining any armed naval vessel larger than one hundred tons, and from maintaining a total naval presence of more than 400 tons off the Arctic coast. The Russians were also granted the right to build a railway connecting the Soviet Union, Sweden, and Norway through Finland. The Soviets would then have the right to transport goods through Finland by rail free of tariffs, inspections, and fees.

The treaty was signed in Moscow on March 12, and the cease-fire went into effect at 12:00 PM, March 13, 1940. Although the terms of the treaty were terribly harsh for Finland, the Finnish government was "'happy that the agreement does not limit Finland's sovereignty and independence'". 11 For Finland, however, the worst was yet to come.


With the treaty signed, and the new borders drawn out, Finland was in a new dilemma. Who would be Finland's ally in case Moscow decided to present new demands? Certainly, the Allies would not help, since Finland had made peace directly against their wishes. With this in mind, Finland turned to her neighbors. Norway and Sweden were both too small and too scared to help, or be of any real assistance.

Aside from that, the proposed "Northern Alliance" was frowned upon by the Soviets, claiming that it was anti-Russian, and prevented the Finns from entering it. So the next logical step was to turn to Germany. When the Finns asked the Germans to guarantee the borders of Finland through a military alliance, the Germans agreed to do so.

Although nothing was ever set down in writing, "all indications point to Germany's having given some sort of a guarantee to Finland." 12 Indeed, the peace treaty had brought about a relationship between Finland and Germany that would later develop into a full fledged anti-Russian military alliance. In fact, Finland would play a rather important role in the remainder of World War II, both alongside and against Germany.

[Arlo]

The "Continuation War" is the war in which Finland fought alongside Germany against Russia from June 25, 1941 to September 4, 1944. When Germany attacked the Soviet Union, directly violating the Nazi-Soviet pact, Finland allowed German troops to attack the Soviet Union through Finland. Although the Soviets viewed this as an open act of aggression, Finland had not declared war on the Soviet Union. This changed when the Soviets began bombing Finnish cities on morning of June 25, 1941.

Finland then duly declared war against Russia, and joined the attack on June 30. The prime objective of the Finns, understandably, during this period was to liberate the areas lost to the Soviets in the Winter War.

Teamed with the Germans, and better equipped than in 1939, the Finns had little trouble driving the Russians back to pre-Winter War lines. In a few areas of the front, Finnish troops crossed the old border, but it was solely in order to gain favorable defensive positions. This is obvious because the Finns never advanced far into Russia, and they also refused to join the German attack on the city of Leningrad. This "attack phase" of the war lasted roughly until the end of 1941, at which time the fighting more or less was quiet, and the lines remained constant until the summer of 1944.

At this time, it was clear to all (save Hitler himself) that Germany was going to lose the war. The fact that Germany had fought (and nearly won) a three front war against nearly every major power in the world is amazing in itself. But the fact that Finland was about to again switch sides in the war is one of the oddest happenings in World War II.

Once it became apparent that Germany was losing, and losing quickly, the Finns opened negotiations with the Soviets. Nothing came of these, however, and the two nations remained at odds. The Soviet Union started an all-out attack on the Karelian Isthmus on June 9, 1944 (it was coordinated with the D-Day landings in Normandy). The massive attack was able to breach the Finnish defense in Valkeasaari on June 10, and the front retreated rapidly to the secondary defense line of the Finns, the Vammelsuu-Taipale Line (This line had been erected after the Winter War as a defense against a possible Soviet invasion). The fighting was furious as Soviet tanks and infantry supported by massed artillery and ground-attack aircraft pounded the Finnish defenders into the ground.

Once again, the Finns fought valiantly, but the technological and numerical superiority of the Russians was too much for the exhausted Finnish defenders. The line was breached by a Soviet attack on June 14, and after the failure of a major counter attack to repulse the attackers, the defense had to be pulled back yet again. Once again, the Finns engaged in a hit and run harassment war, engaging Soviet columns and retreating before the Russians could mount an effective defense. As valiantly as they fought, the Finns could not halt the Soviet military giant. On June 20, 1944, the city of Viipuri fell to the Soviets. Shortly after this time, however, the Finnish army had somehow been able to concentrate enough artillery and troops equipped with new German anti-tank weapons to actually present a formidable threat to the Soviets.

Between June 25 and July 6, the largest military battle ever fought in Scandinavia went in favor of the Finns. Soviet losses in tanks and manpower on this killing ground were so great that the Red Army was forced to break off the attack and even retreat. Having failed to penetrate deep into Finland by land, the Soviets next tried an amphibious assault across the Gulf of Finland. It ended in disaster when the Russians could not obtain a beach-head on the mainland. This attack began on July 4 and fierce amphibious attacks and close range battles continued until July 10. The third major effort by the Soviet armed forces began July 4, this time attempting to obtain a bridge-head across the Vuoksi river. This attack was pounded by Finnish artillery, and suffered viscous counter-attacks at the hands of the Finnish infantry. Finally, on July 11 as Soviet high-command ordered their troops to re-organize on defense. At the end of summer, the front was stabilized, with the Finns actually holding the upper hand.

Finland, to her credit, saw that peace with the Soviet Union was the only possible way to avoid going down with the Germans at the time of their inevitable defeat. The Soviets, knowing that their military position was weak, but their diplomatic position was extremely strong, welcomed peace with the Finns. The cease-fire with the Soviet Union began 07:00 AM on September 4, 1944. Finland lost roughly the same amount of territory as it did following the first war with the Soviets, and things were more or less returned to the pre-war status quo. The two greatest stipulations of this treaty stated that Finland must pay huge reparation payments to the Soviet Union, and they also must drive the remaining German forces out of Finland.

The "Lappland War" was fought against Germany after the cease-fire with the Soviet Union. It was the effort on the part of the Finns to carry out their part of the treaty and drive the Germans from Finland. Were they not able to expel the Germans on their own, it was written in the peace treaty that the Russians would be "obliged" to come to Finland's aid. This cause much apprehension on the part of the Finnish government, for if the Soviets brought their troops into Finland unopposed, it would surely mean the occupation and annexation of Finland. Spurred on by this fear, the Finns fought well against a disheartened German army. The last German troops were out of Finland on April 27, 1945.

Because of their unique situation, the Finns never surrendered, and were never occupied by Allied troops. In addition to being the only nation in World War II to change sides, Finland was also the sole country on the losing side that was not occupied by foreign troops. While their country was never occupied, Finland was raped economically by reparations and concessions written into peace treaties.

[scJazz]

Does it get any clearer than this? The US and Britain got in bed with Satan to get rid of Satan's child Hitler.

I'm totally disgusted. We should have told Stalin to go screw himself from the very beginning.

The Enemy of my Enemy IS NOT always my friend.

[Wmaker]

Basically agree everything that Arlo quotes there.

That "economically raped" is in way a bit harsh term. But it is indeed true that loss of Karelia was an enormous loss to Finland. Positive part of the high war debts Finland had to pay was that it got our industrial infastructure rolling and helped Finland a lot in getting back to its feet after the war.

[GRUNHERZ]

I think it clear that the Finns willingly allied themselves with Germany like many other countries who saw it to their advantage or liking to do so...

[Siaf__csf]

Hmm.. or you mean just your original nation, the croats?

Give me some cheerleading again Grun, it's so entertaining.

[TimRas]

This is quite semantic question. Finland, like the other east European countries that were cobelligerent with Germany were not 'axis' in the sense that they were not members of the Three Power Pact (Germany, Italy and Japan). Finland were in coalition with Germany in war against Soviet Union from June 1941 to September 1944.
The reason of the war was different from that of Germanys, however. The Winter War in 1939 was an unprovoked attack on Finland by the Soviets. That understandably caused great bitterness in Finland and coalition with Germany was the only way Finland could hope to get back the lost territory. The philosophy was thus actually the same as in Britain and USA: "Enemy of my enemy is my friend".
During the Winter War 1939-1940 the Germanys attitude to Finland was neutral, almost hostile. In that time Germany and Soviet Union were in alliance.
After armistice with Soviets in Sept 1944 Finland had to expel the German troops still staying in Northern Finland. In October and November 1944, Germans were driven out of most of northern Finland. The German forces under General Rendulic, however, devastated large areas of northern Finland using the scorched earth tactic. More than one-third of the dwellings in that area were destroyed, and the provincial capital of Rovaniemi was burned down. In addition to the property losses, about 100,000 inhabitants became refugees.