Confusion in the CT

[scJazz]

I heard several comments last week both in the CT and the MA regarding bugs and other strange things in the CT. Players were saying things like "I hit the hanger with a full P-51 and didn't destroy it". Not quite an accurate quote but it expresses the idea I'm trying to get across.

Why do we constantly tweak the hardness of objects, the downtime, turn the strat system off, etc? In part I know the answer to this question. It is done so that can't screw up 's enjoyment of the furball. Unfortunately these tweaks have the side effect of causing the newer members of the community to consider the CT to be buggy and unpredictable.

Aces High is a simulation of WWII combat in armor and airplanes. It is an attempt to create an "universe" where players can use these tools to conqueor the enemy. As in the physical world it has certain rules. AAA guns can't fire above 8100' AGL. Shooting a Tiger with a M8 is a very uncertain thing. HE shells do more damage to objects than AP shells. To be certain there are oddities in the simulation; such as the length of night, only 10 troops to capture a base, running a piece of town debris over can destroy a vehicle, there isn't much in the way of wind layers.

Players learn about Aces High's environment in the Main Arena. This is where they get their first taste of Aces High and this is where they learn what will and will not work. There they learn things like; a Pony with full ORD can kill a hanger if no rounds miss, a Shore Battery can be killed with 8 hits from the Cruiser guns, 2 1000 lb bombs will kill the Cruisers or Destroyers, darbars don't show if you fly under 200', darbars show across the entire map.

When they arrive in the CT all of this knowledge gets thrown out the window. Unpredictable stuff occurs constantly. Darbars don't show up at all, radar range is different, icons don't show until you are very close, hangers don't blow up like they should. Heck, hangers even look different. In other words all of the things they have learned to expect are different, sometimes even wildly different.

Why must we constantly tweak these settings and cause new players to feel that the CT is an odd unpredictable thing which they can't learn? What is so horrible about keeping hangers set to 2,731.2 lbs of hardness? Does it really ruin the simulation to have the DAR settings be the same as the MA constant? Is having enemy icon range set to 6000 yards really all that much different from 3000 yards? These new players practice their skills for weeks and in their exploration of different things (the CT) learn that everything they know is worthless. The confusion this sows is certainly a factor in the constantly low numbers in the CT.

Can we get some setups perhaps a BoB map which uses MA standard settings? Can we advertise this fact to the MA? I use BoB as an example because at least the Hangers look like Hangers on that map.

I now expect to be flamed on things like the Russians and Finns didn't even have Radar, etc. I have a standing reply to the "historically blinded" types. Do you think that every single hanger in all of Germany required the exact same amount of ordanance to destroy? That everyone of the radars had exactly the same range and blindspots?

Climbing into the Flame Retardant Suit...

[Seeker]

"standard" dar and icons would go a looooong way in getting me in there.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Seeker
"standard" dar and icons would go a looooong way in getting me in there.

(raises eyebrow)

DAR and icons don't make much difference to me either way.  Never flew the MA enough to get used to them there, so I'm not disoriented here.  Seems to me that having the "standard" settings might make it easier to find the fights, which I think would be a good thing.

I differ from Jazz on the hardness issue, and other, similar issues.  I don't want the CT to turn into the MA, with its wars of conquest.  Making base capture easier encourages the war-winners, and I think that is a bad thing.  Same thing with the boats...whoever figured out how to get them the heck away from everything else did a great job, so far as I'm concerned.  I'm always a big supporter of increasing attendance, but not at the expense of turning the CT into the MA.

- oldman

[Dennis]

No flame intended here.  But I think just about every thing you've cited could be addressed by one simple act on the part of the player:  Read the MOTD.  It's usually all there, everytime you log on.

Granted, that's not the way it works in the MA; everyone just blindly clicks through it and starts playing.  But the MA is set up to deal with the lowest common denominator.  Has to be.  As you say, that's were everyone goes to learn the game, instead of reading the help files or visiting the TA.

What's the acronym?  RTFM?  Sorry, I just never developed a tolerance for the 'feed me' generation.

What's the harm in requiring players to actually think or adapt?  Do we really have to dumb it down just to increase numbers?

Overall, I disagree with your assessment of the game.  But that's fine, it can be whatever each of us wants it to be.
Personally, I think it's an arcade, not a sim -- particularly the MA and its style of play.  And I don't think blowing watermelon up is the be all and end all of the game, so who cares how much ord it takes to kill a hangar?
CT is, well, the "Combat Theater."  IMHO, 'combat' can exist without the strat/landgrab aspect of the game.  But the strat/landgrab aspect can squelch combat.

And I'm not one of those who thinks numbers are generally major problem.

Splash1

[Xjazz]

IMHO

I liked very much the CT and I dump MA almost totally. The reason was the same old boring MA... The CT give weekly a new enviroment: map, planeset and settings. Much more interesting.

Sometimes there was some hazzle at begining of the new setup  but CM's fixed those fats.

The CT d3k icons was the blast to me. Just need to maintain SA more offten and co-operate with your country mates. Also co-operating help you find the fights.

Maybe SEA is too hard and unstandart for the newcomers, eh?  



My 2 cents

[Corwin]

I fly in the CT.  I am confused.  I don't think the two are necessarily inter-related or are they?  I'm not really sure...I guess...I'm not very confident...did this post?  What was this thread about?  

[Löwe]

SCJAZZ.

I think the tweaking you speak of is mostly the CM's trying to make the setup as realistic, and playable , as possible.

Yes the main is where everyone starts , and a few of those convert to the CT. Like Oldman I'm not big on the base capture run the map kind of play. For one thing, and I know you, and I have gone around this bush before . In that type of enviroment the Axis are going to get their clock cleaned nearly every week, due to the lack of bombers.

I don't know why each and every guy that prefers CT over MA does, all I can say for me, it's the historical "AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE" plane matchups.

The Allies didnt conquer Europe, and the Pacific , with just C47's, and paratroops.  So I could live with a whole lot of tweaking, and a whole lot of options available in MA left out in this game. However  thats just me, and my preferences.

I really think the CM's adjust settings to get the most out of the limited types aircraft, and GV 's, that each setup has. Just a theroy , but there ya have it.

[scJazz]

OK I'll try to keep this reply brief while responding to each point raised. <--- Oxymoron and I know it (Checked length as I finished this post and apologize that I type 70 word per min and read 1 page in 30 sec)

First of all since Seeker posted a reply to a board he isn't very active on and since that post pertains to my comments I feel ever so slightly correct. Yes, I know that I'm listening to a single voice that never speaks but that is in fact part of my point. Yesterday, it occured to me that even Short Icon range wasn't really effecting me at all. I was able to identify enemy planes outside icon range and could tell their distance based on the range of nearby friendlies, shape/color, and icon size.

To Löwe... I in part agree with you. The lack of Axis bombers sucks in ways difficult to describe. I WANT MORE AXIS PLANES! Notably the bombers and JABOs. Oddball variants of Regiannes that can't endure in the MA excluded. Until we get them SUBSTITUTE. I note that there isn't much screaming about the FM2 Brewster.

To xJazz, who is stealing my callsign but I'm not going to hold that against him too much. The icon range is only 1 small part of it. Icon range is probably the easiest to adjust to. Yes the SEA is too complicated to the newcomers who have just learned that it doesn't take a full blown Lancaster strike to kill a single hanger.

To Splash, reading the MOTD doesn't mean a whole lot to the average player who knows that a P51D can kill a hanger but doesn't have the vaguest clue as to how much damage that actually does. OK so Hanger require 4K of ord or 5K. So what they say, they don't know that an MA hanger requires 2731.2lbs. Let alone the fact that a P51Ds ord causes 2936lbs of damage. Hell even CT moderators didn't know as evidenced in posts to other forums of this BB (kinda concerned that CMs are tweaking these values without knowing MA standards and weapon damages). Therefore reading the MOTD is sort of above the persons I'm talking about.

To Oldman, OK mate with no disrespect intended... I come back to my comments about the Elite Furballing Arena with Rotating Planeset worked on the DA map. If this is what the majority want let us just do it and save the CMs and Terrain Makers more free time to drink beer.

To everyone... several comments regarding the idea of not having a CT that includes base captures. Part of me understands this attitude. However another part of me realizes that the NO BASE captures is an offshoot of the low numbers. Low numbers in the arena causes side switching to equalize imbalances causes pilots to not consider "their country" causes furballs are awesome causes base capturing = bad. When I fly in the MA I become seriously annoyed with Bishops capturing a base because I am a Rook (snide comments from dipwads should be left untyped at this point). No one who flies in the CT gets hooked to a side. Hell I even lobbied my CO to allow me to fly Axis when an imbalance occured. In the MA if I fly during the morning I purposefully and methodically find the area that Taki and his Puni squadron are operating in on the Bishop front for the sole purpose of shooting him and his pals down (or I turn the base he is flying from into rubble). I hate Taki! I hate his freaking squadron! With respect to any CT flyer who is one, I bloody well freaking hate Bishop! This attitude causes me to be competitive in the MA. I hunt them, I kill them, I annoy the crap out of them. I do whatever it takes to make life difficult for them. In response when Taki/Puni/Bishop realize I am operating on their front they attempt to cause me great amounts of stress. They hunt/annoy/kill me in competition for title of "most stupendous pain in butt". Whoever wins the title for the day comes away with a positive sense of accomplishment.

In the CT I couldn't care less if I blast Storch out of the sky in a nasty hi six bounce. Turning DarkKnight's bombers into random bits of debris is only slightly fun. OK getting sucked into the vertical with Rhye's Zoom Stall Fight is becoming annoying but only because he is so freakin good at it and I fall for it everytime I'm not aware that he is on. <--- Hint the rest of us should take lessons from Rhye's SA when he pulls this trick.

More players = fewer complaints about base capture = more competitive play = target rich environment = more damn fun.

Checks Flame Retardant suit integrity.

[Löwe]

Originally posted by scJazz

To Löwe... I in part agree with you. The lack of Axis bombers sucks in ways difficult to describe. I WANT MORE AXIS PLANES! Notably the bombers and JABOs. Oddball variants of Regiannes that can't endure in the MA excluded. Until we get them SUBSTITUTE. I note that there isn't much screaming about the FM2 Brewster.



Checks Flame Retardant suit integrity.

This Wildbuffalo is the most fun I've had in months. Yes it's uber, and I love it!:D

[brady]

Ok, some statments to clarify what to some is obvious and other not so obvious:

 Hardness setings are often tweaked and yes posted in the motd, but I also get asked so often what the setings are while I am in the CT that I wounder why in the H!ll I bothger wrting the motd:)

 hardness setings are changed depending on the map and the plane set to better acheave playbalance depending on the Jabo/Bomber capacity of the plane set and the field setings, and of course the CT Staffer's view on what will best generate the type of play he is wanting in the CT.

 The Staff has debated this long and hard over the years and their is no real way to acheave a standard leval of setings do the above mention neads relative to the maps which are al different and the planes set on them depending on eara can have quiet different load out's.

 Lethality setings are NEVER changed on player controled unit's, only AI is changed but it is alomst always set at .7, and we always have the same Icon range and generaly short DAR setings than the MA so their are some constants other than the complaning:)

[Seeker]

Icon ranges are standard now?

When did that change? Maybe I should drop in from time to time.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Seeker
Icon ranges are standard now?

When did that change? Maybe I should drop in from time to time.

brady mis-typed...  it's still short *icon* range (3k), however *dot* range is MA-standard i'd think. radar setting (map dot/dar) is the biggest factor more than anything that helps in seeing where action is.  and it's the one contact variable that changes from setup to setup.

[Xjazz]

SCJazz write
"I note that there isn't much screaming about the FM2 Brewster."

And did you note that there isn't much screaming about the LA5FN which present -43 LA5? Few first La5FNs comes to the Careilian front summer -44.  MAIN Russian fighter in Careilian front was basic La5's and La5F's.


SCJazz write
"To xJazz, who is stealing my callsign but I'm not going to hold that against him too much.

Im stealing your callsing only in this board since Jun 2001. Your first MA/CT tour was??


SCJazz write
"Icon range is probably the easiest to adjust to."

Your right. HTC also find out this and make same basic arena adjustments. MA d6k and CT d3k, locks On!


SCJazz write
"Yes the SEA is too complicated to the newcomers who have just learned that it doesn't take a full blown Lancaster strike to kill a single hanger."

Complicated? Order: Fly this to there, bomb/escort/shoot the enemy and fly back. Dont die. Questions? Lets roll

[scJazz]

Originally posted by Xjazz
SCJazz write
"To xJazz, who is stealing my callsign but I'm not going to hold that against him too much.

Im stealing your callsing only in this board since Jun 2001. Your first MA/CT tour was??

My nickname has been Jazz since 1983 when there were 3 Joshua's in my Algebra class and I learned how to hack.

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by scJazz
My nickname has been Jazz since 1983 when there were 3 Joshua's in my Algebra class and I learned how to hack.

Surely YOU have a Trademark & Copyright rights for all "Jazz" related nick's in AH

Where you have been at AH tour 12, when I subscrib to the Aces High?
Your nick can be jazz-what-ever and mine is Xjazz.
I really dont care.

Is that hacking skill so big deal?


Nice troll, dude