General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rabbidrabbit on February 05, 2023, 05:46:58 PM
Title: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: rabbidrabbit on February 05, 2023, 05:46:58 PM
I started up a Ukraine war thread at Icom if you guys want daily updates and links to stories etc. I can't start one here because I'm sure some of you will get it locked. Not trying to play games or any bs. I think some of you might appreciate some of the stuff that comes up in my daily feeds.
Here is one post from today to give some feel of it: none of the maps and links came through but..
Bakhmut
The AFU repulsed attacks in the area of Blahodatne, Krasna Hora, Paraskoviivka and Bakhmut. According to UA defense analyst "CDS" The 241st Territorial Defense Brigade was moved to Blahodatne and counter attacked with success. pic.twitter.com/1zXJf1nswf
Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
FoN_Tr6aQAEwLBV?format=jpg&name=large
Quote Units of 93rd Mechanized Brigade was moved to the area between Bakhmut and Siversk to stop the RU advance. Some positional battles have been going on around Mykolaivka. RuAF are trying to advance in the Vasyukivka and Rozdolivka direction without success. Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
Quote CDS: "The withdrawal of the remnants of the 'Wagner' PMC detachments from under Bakhmut is underway."
CRybar states
"Bakhmut: Statements about a breakthrough in the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are not true - Ukrainian formations continue to resist." Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023 Display More
Quote RuAF are making some progress in the NE residential areas of Bakhmut. Red dots are geolocated RU positions. Fighting is intense. pic.twitter.com/Qs8OIs1rGt Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
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Quote Bakhmut S
The AFU repulsed attacks in the area of Ivanivske and Klishchiivka. Russian pizda continues to attack in the forest in the canal attempting to reach the T-0504 intersection to Chasiv Yar. pic.twitter.com/FygR1shCM6 Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
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Quote Since GSUA are still reporting attacks in the area of Klishchiivka I _assume_ AFU still controls the fortified heights north of the town. I have not seen any signs of progress by RuAF south of Bakhmut the last few days. Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
Quote Vuhledar
No major change now for a week. One UA telegram claims there are favorable conditions for a UA counter attack in the direction of Novodonets'ke and Novomaiors'ke. I don't think that is true. I think it's Psyops. pic.twitter.com/VDUvYQMDqK Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
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Quote The favorable conditions supposedly raised when some of the Naval infantry units withdrew due to heavy losses. We do need to keep in mind RuAF have accumulated up to 20000 troops in the area between Vuhledar and Mariupol. Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023 Quote Ru telegram channels are also talking about an AFU counter attack, they claim AFU have sent significant reinforcements to the area. This is however not strange considering the 20k Ru troops. I suspect the AFU potential reinforcements are intended for defense/relief. Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
Quote I suspect all this talk about UA offensive is just a way for the Russians to explain losses without having done any progress. It's just how things work in Russia, you just lie to cover up other lies. Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
Quote Luhansk Airport January
This is one of the targets which will become in range once Ukraine receive longer range fires like GLSDB. I counted almost 20 helicopters at this location alone. pic.twitter.com/EO4ofAFjCH Def Mon (@DefMon3) February 5, 2023
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Quote There will be little good news from the eastern frontline in the coming days. — WarMonitor\uD83C\uDDFA\uD83C\uDDE6 (@WarMonitor3) February 5, 2023 Quote These next months of the war as I have mentioned before will be the toughest.
Russian forces will throw everything they can into new offensives to achieve some strategic objectives.
However remember Russia are not the only ones that can launch offensives. — WarMonitor\uD83C\uDDFA\uD83C\uDDE6 (@WarMonitor3) February 5, 2023
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Shuffler on February 05, 2023, 09:20:15 PM
Gee looks lime the enemy can get updates on effectiveness. :frown:
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 05, 2023, 11:32:06 PM
rabbidrabbit has had this thread going for a long time.
Not exaggerating in saying that it's probably the most informative source of reporting anywhere. Better than any single news source.
And in case you don't know rabbidrabbit, he's a critical thinker and does not jump to conclusions. He's the best reporter on this war, by far.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: rabbidrabbit on February 06, 2023, 08:54:05 AM
Gee looks lime the enemy can get updates on effectiveness. :frown:
It's pretty safe to say they know where the front lines are.
There is an interesting angle. There are several US or Uke based map makers that update daily and one russian one. It's interesting to see how those maps change during an attack as one can be ahead of the other in different ways. It helps you get an understanding how each side is perceiving the attack.
I post stuff from both sides and various commentaries. I'm doing it as a community service as it's tough to get good info on what is going on day to day, month to month. By taking info from a number of sources you can get a pretty good feel on how it's going
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Shuffler on February 06, 2023, 06:20:38 PM
It's pretty safe to say they know where the front lines are.
There is an interesting angle. There are several US or Uke based map makers that update daily and one russian one. It's interesting to see how those maps change during an attack as one can be ahead of the other in different ways. It helps you get an understanding how each side is perceiving the attack.
I post stuff from both sides and various commentaries. I'm doing it as a community service as it's tough to get good info on what is going on day to day, month to month. By taking info from a number of sources you can get a pretty good feel on how it's going
Just noticed I spelled LIKE / LIME :rofl
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: LCADolby on February 07, 2023, 12:57:41 PM
Crimea- anyone care to bet Russia is still in control of it in a year?
I couldn't care less. As long as there are about 500,000 less military aged russians(spit) left alive doing it.
Like Zeihan said; our strategic goal is to destroy the russian(spit) military in Ukraine with Ukrainian soldiers so we don't have to destroy them in Poland with NATO soldiers.
The war can end tomorrow. All russia(spit) has to do is remove every soldier from every inch of Ukrainian soil. They chose to start it. They can choose to end it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 08, 2023, 10:33:03 AM
Russia is fighting NATO now imo
Without the $$$ and weapons from NATO nations that they have received I don't believe they would still be around
Not sure of the numbers of foreign boots on the ground in Ukraine as it is not reported but there are thousands I would guess
Hoping for a peace soon that will satisfy all
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2023, 10:36:58 AM
That would require every every russian(spit) soldier leaving every inch of Ukrainian territory. The russians(spit) can chose peace today if they want it.
And if Tsar Putain (Putin in French, check w/ translator... ;) ) wins this clash, he won't stop it there. Megalomaniac madman wants always more.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: RotBaron on February 09, 2023, 08:09:35 AM
😳 someone doesn’t realize how lucky they are to have the ability to be a keyboard warrior and condemn soldiers of another nation for performing their job. Many are conscripted and the majority of the rest volunteered because it was better than other jobs available. Hmm the latter sound just like, ummm virtually every western nation volunteer soldier.
I suppose some think Russian soldiers should just surrender at the first opportunity and trust they won’t be executed, or rather some don’t care…I guess they’re not humans.
Boot lick slurp 😋
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 09, 2023, 08:28:13 AM
Hoping one day a countries citizens tell their government to go pound sand when they are told they must kill their neighbors..
But by then they are are so jazzed up with patriotic duties...they blindly march into the next endless war
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 09:11:35 AM
It amazes me how former Reagan era Cold Warriors have been turned into KGB bootlicking "Useful Idiots" just because some talking-head on a certain cable news channel told them to.
I'm sure many Japanese and German soldiers didn't want to go fight and invade other countries. That's irrelevant. That didn't stop us from leveling Dresden and Berlin and Tokyo and shooting every German or Japanese soldier we could get a gun sight on until they unconditionally surrendered.
If they don't like that, the russian(spit) soldier should shoot their officers in the face and turn their tanks around and march on the Kremlin to free their own country instead of invading another country to enslave it.
Eagler, I have two questions for you:
1. Why do you feel russia(spit) has the right to invade and enslave Ukraine?
2. If Mexico invaded Texas, would you be so quick to suggest we negotiate away Texas to them to avoid any conflict?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 09, 2023, 10:06:01 AM
1. I never stated they did ..not sure anyone truly knows but putin and his leadership..sorry if I don't believe what's being spoon fed to the masses..but never agreed with the invasion
2. Not the same thing imo but if they did zero countries would have had to come to our aid
I don't think we should have been involved in one of the most corrupt governments in the world in 2014 nor since though
We are not the world's police or are we?
All you war mongers run down and sign up as a merc yet?
Now when peace is a bad word and endless warring is preferred by many
And then you get called a bootlicker by the armchair generals lol
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: MiloMorai on February 09, 2023, 10:15:27 AM
Name one government that is not corrupt.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 10:19:21 AM
2. Not the same thing imo but if they did zero countries would have had to come to our aid
By "not the same thing", do you mean that is too hard for you to answer?
I'm not asking what other countries would do. You seem to have argued that Ukraine is being unreasonable by not being will to negotiate away 1/3 of their country just to avoid further conflict.
Would you negotiate away Texas just to avoid fighting?
Why should we help?
If you were walking down a street and looked over and saw a young girl getting raped in an ally, would you just shrug and keep on walking because it was none of your business? Whata guy.
I wish the russian(spit) soldier a long and fruitful life. As long as they stay in russia(spit). The second they invade another country, I want them exterminated like insects.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 09, 2023, 10:45:11 AM
Didn't this start in 2014 when that election was overthrown by us?
I see a pattern here...
Some governments are more corrupt than others or they just don't hide it as well...
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 10:54:22 AM
Didn't this start in 2014 when that election was overthrown by us?
I see a pattern here...
Some governments are more corrupt than others or they just don't hide it as well...
Eagler
By your refusal to answer the readers can assume you would gladly negotiate away Texas to avoid any fighting. Nor would you stop a young girl from being raped if you had to intervene. Good to know where people stand.
I wasn't aware we staged an invasion of Ukraine in 2014. Is there footage of this invasion on Youtube?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 09, 2023, 11:12:44 AM
Putins Russia is certainly not even close to the former soviet union. It's far more capitalistic and doing better than ever before. Trips, I'm curious why you never refer to Putins last decade of warnings to the UN about corruption on his border in Ukraine? Why is it Americans responsibility to protect corrupt business/NGOs associates in Ukraine that threaten Russia? What kind of communist calls an armistice to celebrate Christimas? Imagine that. This entire situation is the fault of corrupt business leaders thinking they can do whatever the F they want. I mean they blamed him and his country for helping Trump win and embarrassed both nations with the dossier,which was blatantly false. Russia is the only country that I am aware of who exposed the leaders of DARPA who funded the covid bioweapon, which killed millions. I feel bad for those citizens over there, but don't act like Putin is doing this just to be doing this. You all say Putin wants to take over the world. How about Bilderberg? How about the WEF and the Great Reset? Who is claiming to be a world government now? How did they use their bioweapon and paid MSM to kill millions and shut down millions of businesses in the process? Sorry. But i will not defend the American government after it raided Lynia and Syria with drone strikes and removed their leader while pointing the finger at Russia. None of that bull crap represents me as an American citizen.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: whiteman on February 09, 2023, 11:15:44 AM
guess the old ignore list is growing today.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 11:36:08 AM
Putins Russia is certainly not even close to the former soviet union. It's far more capitalistic and doing better than ever before. Trips, I'm curious why you never refer to Putins last decade of warnings to the UN about corruption on his border in Ukraine?
Wait. The head of an organized crime kleptocracy is complaining about corruption? LoL.
I'm sure there is corruption in Ukraine. I'm sure there is corruption in russia(spit). As long as they keep their troops in their respective national boundaries, I hope they eventually work that out.
I didn't bother reading the rest of your Q-Anon dribble.
It is just amazing to watch Americans suck on Kremlin propaganda like there was a prize inside.
Ronald Reagan would spit on you.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 09, 2023, 11:54:35 AM
Wait. The head of an organized crime kleptocracy is complaining about corruption? LoL.
I'm sure there is corruption in Ukraine. I'm sure there is corruption in russia(spit). As long as they keep their troops in their respective national boundaries, I hope they eventually work that out.
I didn't bother reading the rest of your Q-Anon dribble.
It is just amazing to watch Americans suck on Kremlin propaganda like there was a prize inside.
Ronald Reagan would spit on you.
You are a complete idiot. You calling everything you don't like "q-anon, or "Russian" propaganda, is why Ukraine is at war. Negligence and complete hypocrisy at its finest. If the "bold and intellegent" didn't select their dementia patient with the "largest voter fraud network in history". We wouldn't even be in this war.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 12:05:13 PM
You are a complete idiot. You calling everything you don't like "q-anon, or "Russian" propaganda, is why Ukraine is at war. Negligence and complete hypocrisy at its finest. If the "bold and intellegent" didn't select their dementia patient with the "largest voter fraud network in history". We wouldn't even be in this war.
Wow. You have trouble concentrating.
There are no US forces fighting in Ukraine. We are trying to help Ukraine stop them there so we don't have to fight them in the countries of our NATO allies. Poland, Romania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc, etc. Those will be putin's (spit) next targets as he continues to try and expand out to the former Soviet Unions defensive perimeter.
No he will not stop with Ukraine. Just like Chechnya, Gorgia, Crimea. Just like Hitler with Poland, Austria, etc. There is only one way to stop an expansionist dictator.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 09, 2023, 12:08:11 PM
There are no US forces fighting in Ukraine. We are trying to help Ukraine stop them there so we don't have to fight them in the countries of our NATO allies. Poland, Romania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc, etc. Those will be putin's (spit) next targets as he continues to try and expand out the former Soviet Unions defensive perimeter.
No he will not stop with Ukraine. Just like Chechnya, Gorgia, Crimea. Just like Hitler with Poland, Austria, etc. There is only one way to stop an expansionist dictator.
That is false. They have already stated they don't care about those countries, Ukraine is who they have a problem with and Ukraines leadership is failing to come to an agreement. They just want those sweet billions.
Is the Bilderberg WEF World government sponsored by the UN expansionist global takeover and agenda 2030? 🤔 tell me what's "freedom or American" about that.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 12:13:25 PM
But maybe the Kremlin is telling the truth this time. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
From your source.
Certainly something ticked them off and Putin said go in.
"We would like to put everything on the paper, we would like to see legally binding guarantees for Russian security," he said. "We sent our package of proposals, what should we do? We don't want to see next wave of expansion of NATO. We would like you not to use any eastern and central European countries, as well as Baltic states, to deploy their new weapons. We don't want INF missiles deployed in Europe."
After all, American politicians were making Russia the enemy by claiming they helped Trump win, while building weapons systems and expanding a global army on their border. We had a problem with that in Cuba after all.
Look, I don't claim to know everything about Russia. It's been a country for a long long time. They helped America gain its independence from the British. Now whose our ally and whose our enemy? See how it's interesting that things change. I don't believe Putin is the man that Western media makes him out to be. I do believe he's probably done some F Ed up stuff to gain and keep power. Russia has alwasy been brutal like that. But imagine being the leader of a country after the worst soviet empire in history and building it stronger than before without forcing your people into slavery by the state. Russia has come a long way. They don't want a world government ran by the current actual fascist/soviets want this world government, and neither do I.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 12:52:20 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 09, 2023, 01:42:38 PM
Yes I can only assume peace would prevail if Russia pulled its forces but do I and the most of the world think that will actually happen?
You didn't reply to our involvement there in 2014..that does swing the thread more political but not sure how you discuss war without talking about politics that start them..we would not be here except for the actions taken in 2014
Let us know when you are shipping out as a merc to save the world...
I am for peace and saving lives as wars are temporary but death isn't
Just like all the rest the mean ole bad guys will be our best friends and trading partners before you know it..heck Europe never stops...
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 09, 2023, 01:47:36 PM
You didn't reply to our involvement there in 2014..
Again, we did not invade Ukraine. We supported nascent pro-democracy groups. The pdf I linked goes into the myth and it's invalidity. You can find thousands of other sources explaining the same points. I'll let you do your own research, or you can just swallow whatever the Kremlin tells you.
Let us know when you are shipping out as a merc to save the world...
Let us know when your application for russian(spit) citizenship goes through. I'll throw you a going-away party.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 09, 2023, 01:55:57 PM
The Ukraine parliament overwhelmingly voted to ratify a free trade agreement with the EU. A couple of months later the president decided to instead increase ties to Russia. There were protests and then the Ukraine government fired on people, killing some.
After a couple of months of protests, and after over 100 protesters were killed, the President fled Ukraine. The next day Parliament voted unanimously to remove the President from office. 328-0.
I doubt very much that the US overthrew the government - since the government (parliament) voted to remove the President. Only the president fled and the parliament voted to remove him. It was not a coup in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Chris79 on February 09, 2023, 02:34:57 PM
The only scenario in which Russia withdrawals from Ukraine is if some one ices Putin which I don’t necessarily find that to be likely. In my opinion, the longer the war persists, the higher likelihood it to escalate into a broader conflict. I’m curious as to what’s is the endgame for the United States here? How do we as a nation benefit from this war being prolonged? We all know from the past 70 years of the geopolitical antics of the US that we do not act altruistically. We have no qualms against overthrowing properly elected leaders and imposing tinpot dictators if it serves our own interests. It makes me think there maybe a rich oil deposit in Ukraine, or possibly rare earth metals. Maybe I’m cynical, maybe I’m just a bit jaded, most of my adult life 25 years, this country has been governed by retards, self serving buffoons, or the smartest man in the room by half.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 09, 2023, 02:44:50 PM
even if someone gets rid of Putin, the next guy may be just as determined to stay in Ukraine.
What a mess.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: The Fugitive on February 09, 2023, 02:45:27 PM
I’m curious as to what’s is the endgame for the United States here?
I think the strategic thinking is pretty well outlined in the Zeihan video I linked earlier. https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406880.msg5388718.html#msg5388718 (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406880.msg5388718.html#msg5388718)
The assumption is that Ukraine is no more the end target than was Chechnya, or Georgia, or Crimea. Putin's end goal is to extend his territory until it reclaims the geographically defensible choke points controlled by the previous Soviet Union.
Unfortunately that means that the next targets will be NATO allies (Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc) which we are bound by NATO treaty to defend will American troops. That has a higher chance of causing a nuclear exchange than having Ukraine defeat them.
Our end game in Ukraine is to either help the Ukrainians stop them cold there in their territory, or help them kill and destroy enough of the Russian offensive capability that they might have to take another decade to recover and refit for the next stage of their plan of conquest.
If they have to take a decade to lick their wounds, a lot of things could happen in that time that might avert a larger catastrophe. They might have a change in government that is more interested in making money doing business with the West instead of invading them. Look at WWII Germany vs the stable rule-of-law post war Germany.
If they don't pause, then at least the Ukrainians have degraded enough of the Russian military that is will be even easier for us to destroy them when they move on to Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. That means less American deaths later.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 09, 2023, 05:32:33 PM
The base thread is actually good. It has gone off the rockers a bit and that is bad. Well.... more than a bit actually.
The point of the thread was to point anyone interested to the Ukraine War thread on ICOM. For people interested in following the latest developments, which Rabbidrabbit has been reporting on since the war began.
OP knew we could not discuss much over here but he wanted to link the thread for those interested in following the developments as they come in from various sources.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 09, 2023, 08:02:35 PM
I think the strategic thinking is pretty well outlined in the Zeihan video I linked earlier. https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406880.msg5388718.html#msg5388718 (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406880.msg5388718.html#msg5388718)
The assumption is that Ukraine is no more the end target than was Chechnya, or Georgia, or Crimea. Putin's end goal is to extend his territory until it reclaims the geographically defensible choke points controlled by the previous Soviet Union.
Unfortunately that means that the next targets will be NATO allies (Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc) which we are bound by NATO treaty to defend will American troops. That has a higher chance of causing a nuclear exchange than having Ukraine defeat them.
Our end game in Ukraine is to either help the Ukrainians stop them cold there in their territory, or help them kill and destroy enough of the Russian offensive capability that they might have to take another decade to recover and refit for the next stage of their plan of conquest.
If they have to take a decade to lick their wounds, a lot of things could happen in that time that might avert a larger catastrophe. They might have a change in government that is more interested in making money doing business with the West instead of invading them. Look at WWII Germany vs the stable rule-of-law post war Germany.
If they don't pause, then at least the Ukrainians have degraded enough of the Russian military that is will be even easier for us to destroy them when they move on to Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. That means less American deaths later.
They have no intention to take over those countries. They simply don't want more of them with Nato assets. These countries should be peaceful and provide a barrier not have weapons facing Russia. Comparing what Putin wants to do vs what Hitler did is a big stretch.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 08:15:49 PM
I think the strategic thinking is pretty well outlined in the Zeihan video I linked earlier. https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406880.msg5388718.html#msg5388718 (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406880.msg5388718.html#msg5388718)
The assumption is that Ukraine is no more the end target than was Chechnya, or Georgia, or Crimea. Putin's end goal is to extend his territory until it reclaims the geographically defensible choke points controlled by the previous Soviet Union.
Unfortunately that means that the next targets will be NATO allies (Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc) which we are bound by NATO treaty to defend will American troops. That has a higher chance of causing a nuclear exchange than having Ukraine defeat them.
Our end game in Ukraine is to either help the Ukrainians stop them cold there in their territory, or help them kill and destroy enough of the Russian offensive capability that they might have to take another decade to recover and refit for the next stage of their plan of conquest.
If they have to take a decade to lick their wounds, a lot of things could happen in that time that might avert a larger catastrophe. They might have a change in government that is more interested in making money doing business with the West instead of invading them. Look at WWII Germany vs the stable rule-of-law post war Germany.
If they don't pause, then at least the Ukrainians have degraded enough of the Russian military that is will be even easier for us to destroy them when they move on to Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. That means less American deaths later.
Other then the previously linked video, have you viewed or listened to any other media pertaining to Mr. Zeihan?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2023, 10:57:20 PM
Other then the previously linked video, have you viewed or listened to any other media pertaining to Mr. Zeihan?
He has his detractors, but I think he is dead on in this.
Putin has already recently started mentioning in speeches that the Baltic States really should belong to Russia after all based on history. He had been saying the same thing about Ukraine before that invasion.
Poland certainly believes Putin is coming for their territory as well. They have doubled their defense spending and are buying everything in sight that goes Booom! They plan to double the size of their military in the next 10 years. They are preparing for full scale war with Russia.
And the idea that Putin wants to re-establish, not the Soviet Unions political structure, but it's territorial boundaries is pretty much an accepted thought in Western military planning. It's not something Zeihan just made up himself.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 10, 2023, 07:10:23 AM
Mr Z is selling the Russian NATO take over story for his benefit imo
If Putin can't take corrupt Ukraine does anyone truly believe he's going to try to invade a NATO backed country?
Our war mongering leaders are wringing their investment hands at the thought though
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: GasTeddy on February 10, 2023, 11:08:51 AM
They have no intention to take over those countries. They simply don't want more of them with Nato assets. These countries should be peaceful and provide a barrier not have weapons facing Russia. Comparing what Putin wants to do vs what Hitler did is a big stretch.
Take a look around, what kind of propaganda official Russian channels are spreading about their neighbors and many others, and of course NATO. Everybody's nazi, even Astrid Lindgren.
In Russian TV there are talks about Novorossiya from Vladivostok to Iberian peninsula, returning back to mother Russia every independent country which has some time in history been part of Russia, what kind of persecution of Russians are going around the world etc. And big part of population there believes every world they see and hear. "It has to be true as I saw it in news..."
My country of origin has 1340 km border wit Russia and where I live now, Ukraina is not far. Here in Europe, we see things bit different way than those on the other side of an ocean. We have all the reasons to be worried.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: RotBaron on February 10, 2023, 11:15:23 AM
GasTeddy:
Can you provide sources for your assertions, I’d be genuinely interested in reading them as an alternative to US “news”.
One of your points is Russian media telling them they are being persecuted. Actually they are, besides all the obvious, I see things happening online in international forums and websites I participate in where Russians (citizens) are being discriminated against and the war in Ukraine is not even a related topic (nor discussed) to the online community…
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 10, 2023, 11:16:34 AM
Take a look around, what kind of propaganda official Russian channels are spreading about their neighbors and many others, and of course NATO. Everybody's nazi, even Astrid Lindgren.
In Russian TV there are talks about Novorossiya from Vladivostok to Iberian peninsula, returning back to mother Russia every independent country which has some time in history been part of Russia, what kind of persecution of Russians are going around the world etc. And big part of population there believes every world they see and hear. "It has to be true as I saw it in news..."
My country of origin has 1340 km border wit Russia and where I live now, Ukraina is not far. Here in Europe, we see things bit different way than those on the other side of an ocean. We have all the reasons to be worried.
Well, Eagler would suggest you negotiate away your country at the first sign of fighting.
Of course that is easy for him to say comfortable in his Baca lounger in Florida, when russian(spit) tanks aren't rolling into his town.
But NATO and the West are always in the wrong and putin(spit) is always in the right. At least that appears to be his position.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 10, 2023, 12:02:13 PM
Putting more words in my mouth CptTrips lol
But have to wonder why Europe is still buying Russian oil if they fear the war will spread to them..
Are we the world's police or not?
I think we shouldn't be but others must believe the opposite
I think we are involved just to keep value in our bloated fiat dollar actually while replacing our aging war inventory while some are getting wealthy in the process...saving Ukraine is secondary
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 10, 2023, 12:25:53 PM
But have to wonder why Europe is still buying Russian oil if they fear the war will spread to them..
Because there is no point in cutting off your nose to spite your face. Instead they took a clever approach. We will continue to buy your petrol, but we're all agreeing to only pay you half the market rate. Russia whined and stamped their feet, said they would never agree, and then quietly continued selling at the cap because they are desperate and need the cash. It still better to get half than nothing.
Now that the heating season is almost over, it's time to tighten the noose more. A total gasoline ban has just started. The sanction so far are just now starting to bite (it takes a while). It's going to get soooooooo much worse over the next few months.
Yeah, make it hurt. Stick it in and twist it.
Next we need a total and complete blockade of of all travel and products in or out of russia(spit), including food or medicine.
Sanction them into the stone age. Until they are running around in animal skins with wooden spears, eating their own children for food.
Then tighten sanctions further.
The beauty of it is, the pain can stop at any moment they choose. Simply withdraw back to their borders.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: GasTeddy on February 10, 2023, 12:39:39 PM
Can you provide sources for your assertions, I’d be genuinely interested in reading them as an alternative to US “news”.
One of your points is Russian media telling them they are being persecuted. Actually they are, besides all the obvious, I see things happening online in international forums and websites I participate in where Russians (citizens) are being discriminated against and the war in Ukraine is not even a related topic (nor discussed) to the online community…
What comes to that persecution of Russians, guess what ignited them. And they are not killed en masse, sent to prison without charges or anything like that, what is claimed in propaganda.
Putin started this propaganda war already more than decade ago. For example, now there has been concentration camps and crematories in Karelia where Finnish nazis have killed thousands of Russian during WW2 according to official truth, despite the fact no trace of them was found by Soviets after the WW2.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 10, 2023, 12:46:25 PM
Wondering then should congress declare war on Russia?
We are at war aren't we?
You are in war? Perhaps, but not in Ukraine. You know, as far as I with my limited military experience can imagine, being at war means troops to be deployed. And only Americans I know in Ukraine are volunteers.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: knorB on February 10, 2023, 02:49:32 PM
You are in war? Perhaps, but not in Ukraine. You know, as far as I with my limited military experience can imagine, being at war means troops to be deployed. And only Americans I know in Ukraine are volunteers.
Cold War 2.0 much like 1.0, fought with proxies.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: GasTeddy on February 10, 2023, 03:02:06 PM
“If we don’t support Ukraine now, there will be new targets for [Vladimir] Putin,” said Paweł Jabłoński, the Polish deputy minister for foreign affairs. “A Russian politician recently suggested that Russia should ‘denazify’ six more countries after Ukraine, including Poland. What we do now, we do out of solidarity and in support of the victims.”
“The opinion throughout Polish society is that if Russia succeeds in Ukraine by claiming territory, whether in Kherson or Zaporizhzhia, there will be the next war, and another after that…,” said Łukasz Jankowski, a political journalist who covers the Polish Parliament. “The feeling is that our basic safety and our independence will be in danger if Russia wins.”
The good news is that russia(spit) has said they have nooooooo intention of invading Poland and the Baltic States. No, of course not. No intention at all. Fake news.
The bad news is, I think they said that at the same news conference they said that there were "no such plans" for invading Ukraine.
:rofl
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: RotBaron on February 11, 2023, 10:57:27 AM
What comes to that persecution of Russians, guess what ignited them. And they are not killed en masse, sent to prison without charges or anything like that, what is claimed in propaganda.
Putin started this propaganda war already more than decade ago. For example, now there has been concentration camps and crematories in Karelia where Finnish nazis have killed thousands of Russian during WW2 according to official truth, despite the fact no trace of them was found by Soviets after the WW2.
I only use Google as a last resort because of lopsided censorship to put it mildly. I also boycott the BBC for same reason…
However, thank you for the links, I’ve already come across some rather interesting articles on the other sites and definitely propaganda too.
RT news was once part of my cable TV provider package, but they got rid of it. I used to watch it a lot circa 2015-18, it had varying and interesting reporting from many perspectives (as their foreign reporters would criticize the Federation). NPR criticizes them as a propaganda arm of the Russian Federation lol, apparently NPR doesn’t ever looked in the mirror.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: oboe on February 11, 2023, 11:48:08 AM
Reuters and AP appear to be the best sources - most factual and least biased...NPR and BBC both near top center though. Can you find your usual news source on this chart?
(https://i.imgur.com/VjtE5IC.jpg)
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: nrshida on February 11, 2023, 11:54:07 AM
I think it's not possible to discuss these events here as de-equiped and ill-motivated as some people are to think for themselves. Quite a lot of abundantly obvious inconsistency if only you choose to look and want to know the truth instead of support your faction.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 11, 2023, 12:01:20 PM
I don't take any one source of a story at face value.
As far as the war in Ukraine, Rabbidrabbit is pulling information organically from loads of different sources - many from first hand accounts on both sides. There is no real "truth" to be had from just one source. I believe if one has a real interest to learn about something, you have to go a lot deeper than just a news service.
Take it all in and realize the all sides are going to be spinning the output. You really have to weigh everything and put the pieces together yourself.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 11, 2023, 12:02:40 PM
Reuters and AP appear to be the best sources - most factual and least biased...NPR and BBC both near top center though. Can you find your usual news source on this chart?
There might be minor things I would quibble, but I think that chart is mostly fair.
The problem is you are talking to people that think InfoWars is the center of fair and balanced and everything else is left of that.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 11, 2023, 12:04:52 PM
I think it's not possible to discuss these events here as de-equiped and ill-motivated as some people are to think for themselves. Quite a lot of abundantly obvious inconsistency if only you choose to look and want to know the truth instead of support your faction.
The main reason why it's impossible to discuss things here is that the moderation shuts it down.
That's why rabbidrabbit linked the thread at icom - where people can weigh in or just read about it without it being locked.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eviscerate on February 11, 2023, 12:30:25 PM
I quit trusting AP when they were in the same building with hamas terrorist.
Hard to trust any so called news site 100%.
It's funny how people actually trust a single source, like a news program, and will just assume what they are told is the truth - end of story.
My aunt who lived near me (recently passed) was a fan of 60 minutes. I would visit her often and I really hated getting into any kind of discussion with her involving the news or major events. She trusted what they said because they have "award winning investigative journalists"
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 12, 2023, 11:25:05 AM
I don't think that a lot of news sources deliberately lie, but that they present "fluff" superficial stories that they don't really investigate. They present the side of a story that they themselves are told by aggregate sources.
Before modern times and the internet - news was put out "on the wire" for local news to regurgitate.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: MiloMorai on February 12, 2023, 11:26:34 AM
I don't think that a lot of news sources deliberately lie, but that they present "fluff" superficial stories that they don't really investigate. They present the side of a story that they themselves are told by aggregate sources.
You still here? I thought you closed the door on the way out.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: guncrasher on February 12, 2023, 12:20:17 PM
I don't think that a lot of news sources deliberately lie, but that they present "fluff" superficial stories that they don't really investigate. They present the side of a story that they themselves are told by aggregate sources.
Before modern times and the internet - news was put out "on the wire" for local news to regurgitate.
I learned back in the 80s that all news are only there to sell commercials and their agendas. and everyone has an agenda including us.
just that simple.
semp
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 12, 2023, 12:38:42 PM
The other problem I see is that news "shows" are blurred in with straight news. A lot of cable news "shows" are much more about opinion talk shows than actual news. They have news stories but the main point of the shows is to opine. Then people take that opinion as news - but only if it matches up with their preconceived ideas.
I don't watch any of that stuff. No Hannity, no Tucker. None of that. From either side.
Also, I also can't stand even 30 seconds of some of these late night shows. Especially Colbert. I swear, flipping through the channels and landing on Colbert at any given point in his show - it takes about 30 seconds or less before some kind of political BS is spewing from his mouth. I used to really like that guy and thought he was funny.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: nrshida on February 13, 2023, 06:55:10 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 13, 2023, 07:19:35 AM
That and this
Peace not war people!
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: ASTAC on February 13, 2023, 08:12:21 AM
The other problem I see is that news "shows" are blurred in with straight news. A lot of cable news "shows" are much more about opinion talk shows than actual news. They have news stories but the main point of the shows is to opine. Then people take that opinion as news - but only if it matches up with their preconceived ideas.
Almost all news is editorial content these days, both in print and TV. It's very rare to find a story about anything that just tells you the facts. Authors always find ways big and small to insert their own spin or opinion. I wish we could get news that was just the facts. Sure it would be a bit boring to read, but at least it would be accurate.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: oboe on February 13, 2023, 09:02:00 AM
Almost all news is editorial content these days, both in print and TV. It's very rare to find a story about anything that just tells you the facts. Authors always find ways big and small to insert their own spin or opinion. I wish we could get news that was just the facts. Sure it would be a bit boring to read, but at least it would be accurate.
Reuters is your best bet. But you can also have confidence also in NPR, BBS, AP, PBS - even the Christian Science Monitor is ranked high for factual content on low on bias. Actually I've heard good things about CSM over the years, but the overtly religious name has always made me somewhat suspicious. But that's my own bias showing :o
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: guncrasher on February 13, 2023, 09:06:00 AM
Almost all news is editorial content these days, both in print and TV. It's very rare to find a story about anything that just tells you the facts. Authors always find ways big and small to insert their own spin or opinion. I wish we could get news that was just the facts. Sure it would be a bit boring to read, but at least it would be accurate.
editorial content is just somebody's opinion not facts. that's why I don't watch them. for example Hannity.
for example I got a kick off Dr Seuss and his canceled books. I did watch the editorial and so called experts, made me smile for weeks.
semp
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: sparky127 on February 13, 2023, 09:30:24 AM
A smart person would join up in increments of four years in years like... 08, 12, 16, 20, 24, etc..
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: ASTAC on February 13, 2023, 09:38:37 AM
Reuters is your best bet. But you can also have confidence also in NPR, BBS, AP, PBS - even the Christian Science Monitor is ranked high for factual content on low on bias. Actually I've heard good things about CSM over the years, but the overtly religious name has always made me somewhat suspicious. But that's my own bias showing :o
Reuters is pretty good. I like the way NPR tells stories over the radio, but they are definitely biased on many subjects. I tend to find the same story across the spectrum of left, right, domestic, and foreign ,media outlets and decide for myself what the truth is. It's exhausting sometimes LOL
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: nrshida on February 13, 2023, 10:11:14 AM
They won't be able to see it. They don't have the equipment.
Peace can be had tomorrow.
All russia(spit) has to do is withdraw back to it's borders and stay there.
Ukraine did not invade russia(spit); russia(spit) invaded Ukraine after the entire world begged them not to and they claimed they had no such intention. The onus for peace now is on them.
Come on russia(spit) give peace a chance.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: knorB on February 13, 2023, 10:34:42 AM
Vanessa Lea Otero (born 1981) is listed at (redacted for accusations of doxxing) and is affiliated with the Democratic Party. She is a female registered to vote in Jefferson County, Colorado.
Trust nothing
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 13, 2023, 10:35:23 AM
Peace not war is easier said than done when you have a country like Russia that is destroying your country. What option do you have?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 10:38:34 AM
Vanessa Lea Otero (born 1981) is listed at (redacted for accusations of doxxing) and is affiliated with the Democratic Party. She is a female registered to vote in Jefferson County, Colorado.
Trust nothing
If a news source has any registered Republicans, is it equally suspicious?
A lot of people think no judge is honest if they ever voted D. How far does it go?
I agree with getting a broad spectrum of sources. No one on Earth can be completely unbiased. If nothing else, in how you unconsciously decide which questions you are interested in.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 10:53:05 AM
Negotiate away a third of your country? (Established by treaty that russia(spit) signed by the way.)
Poor putin is the real victim here. Don't you watch OAN news?
I know, right?
We should just follow the advise that Roger Waters gave in his open letter to Putin. Have you read that one? It's hard to believe there are people like that out there.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: knorB on February 13, 2023, 10:57:03 AM
If a news source has any registered Republicans, is it equally suspicious?
A lot of people think no judge is honest if they ever voted D. How far does it go?
I agree with getting a broad spectrum of sources. No one on Earth can be completely unbiased. If nothing else, in how you unconsciously decide which questions you are interested in.
Point is, everyone has a Bias... including those pointing it out.
Trust no one.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 11:03:59 AM
Point is, everyone has a Bias... including those pointing it out.
Trust no one.
Agreed for media. My daily reading ranges from NYT to National Review.
But what about judges? Can a judge who might have at some point voted D be allowed to preside over a trial of say a certain politician that might be indicted soon?
Does a judge voting record disqualify them from sitting on certain trials?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 11:06:57 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: RotBaron on February 13, 2023, 11:12:14 AM
I hope you all 10+years older than me had the same zeal for the sovereignty of South Vietnam.
However, I know with at least two of you the only reason you so vehemently say you support Ukrainian sovereignty is because you believe that P is great friends with T…
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: RotBaron on February 13, 2023, 11:23:50 AM
Wonderful distraction from East Palestine, Ohio, isn’t this?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: knorB on February 13, 2023, 11:24:50 AM
Agreed for media. My daily reading ranges from NYT to National Review.
But what about judges? Can a judge who might have at some point voted D be allowed to preside over a trial of say a certain politician that might be indicted soon?
Does a judge voting record disqualify them from sitting on certain trials?
If you think a judge's world view does not affect verdicts and sentences, you are sadly mistaken. That is what a service record is for, and should be used as a tool for keeping or removal of a judge.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: knorB on February 13, 2023, 11:26:08 AM
I hope you all 10+years older than me had the same zeal for the sovereignty of South Vietnam.
However, I know with at least two of you the only reason you so vehemently say you support Ukrainian sovereignty is because you believe that P is great friends with T…
It's very easy to say victory at all costs when one's rear isn't sitting in the foxhole.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 11:35:16 AM
If you think a judge's world view does not affect verdicts and sentences, you are sadly mistaken. That is what a service record is for, and should be used as a tool for keeping or removal of a judge.
In my county Judges are on the ballot, and I have voted not to retain more than a few of them in years past. However, most don’t even look at them or research them; those that do are mainly in the legal profession in some way. That’s at the local level for retention and unfortunately is the fairest method, but far from the best as it’s the rarest of occasions they lose their seat on the bench through elections.
Federal judges of course a different ball of wax through appointment.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: knorB on February 13, 2023, 11:54:04 AM
Did you read that NK invaded SK? Or did they not teach that at Prager University. :rolleyes:
Just a prolonged cease fire. Or didn't you remember that little tidbit.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 11:56:16 AM
Let me just clarify my position for all our Kremlin Jane friends out there so they don’t keep embarrassing themselves.
I am against any nation using aggressive war for territorial acquisition. I am willing to help any country trying to defend against another using war to take their land.
Russia wasn’t attacked by Ukraine. Russia wasn’t attacked by terrorist groups based in Ukraine.
Putin simply wants Ukraine’s land and so he is trying to take it.
The civilized community of nations simply can’t tolerate that kind of aggression in the 21st century.
I am willing to provide Ukraine with as much assistance as necessary to resist that kind of naked aggression as long as they want to fight it. If they decided tomorrow it wasn’t worth it, then I would respect their decision. I just don’t want it to be because they were starved of the tools to defend themselves.
And I would like to point out to the rational reader, that not one of the Kremlin Janes has explained why the simplest solution wouldn’t be for russia to simply withdraw back to it’s territory.
Not one of the Janes has addressed that.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: RotBaron on February 13, 2023, 11:57:25 AM
There are sure a lot of Kremlin Janes around here. :rofl [/quote
Intellectual dishonesty at best.
Caring a lot more about what is happening in America for a US citizen than some all to familiar situation another European nation(s) has allowed themselves to get in over their heads is not tantamount to being partial to Russia as you purport ad nauseam.
In truth, I care very little about either nation state and differ to their people to fix their problems. The US is not and should not be the world’s military police force no matter how much some want us as such.
Aside from France, what European nation was fully committed to helping the US gain independence from Britain…?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: knorB on February 13, 2023, 12:00:43 PM
Let me just clarify my position for all our Kremlin Jane friends out there so they don’t keep embarrassing themselves.
I am against any nation using aggressive war for territorial acquisition. I am willing to help any country trying to defend against another using war to take their land.
Russia wasn’t attacked by Ukraine. Russia wasn’t attacked by terrorist groups based in Ukraine.
Putin simply wants Ukraine’s land and so he is trying to take it.
The civilized community of nations simply can’t tolerate that kind of aggression in the 21st century.
I am willing to provide Ukraine with as much assistance as necessary to resist that kind of naked aggression as long as they want to fight it. If they decided tomorrow it wasn’t worth it, then I would respect their decision. I just don’t want it to be because they were starved of the tools to defend themselves.
And I would like to point out to the rational reader, that not one of the Kremlin Janes has explained why the simplest solution wouldn’t be for russia to simply withdraw back to it’s territory.
Not one of the Janes has addressed that.
It's OK when WE do it. I didn't know you were such a pro Iraq and pro afghan invasion.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 12:02:25 PM
There are sure a lot of Kremlin Janes around here. :rofl
Intellectual dishonesty at best.
Caring a lot more about what is happening in America for a US citizen than some all to familiar situation another European nation(s) has allowed themselves to get in over their heads is not tantamount to being partial to Russia as you purport ad nauseam.
In truth, I care very little about either nation state and differ to their people to fix their problems. The US is not and should not be the world’s military police force no matter how much some want us as such.
Aside from France, what European nation was fully committed to helping the US gain independence from Britain…?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 12:05:06 PM
If it was good enough for south Korea it is good enough for Ukraine imo
Let's stop killing each other today and worry about reversing the land gains tomorrow
Eagler
The only way a war ends is when one or both of the participants runs out of the will or ability to continue. At this point neither side is there. The talking point about negotiating is coming from the Russian sympathetic side as a way to undermine western support for the war.
For UA to keep whatever peace that comes from this, the Russian ( Muscovite ) cultural belief in dominating their neighbors has to die. It has been around for a very long time and is on their TV screens every night. Until they move beyond questioning how their invasion went sideways and start seriously questioning the underlying premise of subjugation of everyone they can, there will be no lasting peace. It will simply be a chance to try again.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 12:36:05 PM
All russia(spit) has to do is withdraw back to it's borders and stay there.
You are vastly oversimplifying, making an irrelevant distinction between controlling resources through occupying territory - which is not necessary - and not acknowledging the role certain nations and governments had ensuring that a war was the only possible conclusion. This goes back to before the breakup of the USSR.
Further, in another thread you said you always say what you see and think but you do not extend others the same courtesy hence it is not a discussion but an insistence on your perspective only, which isn't 'arguing'. Adding the spit every time you type Russian is unnecessary. Yes I should imagine they have been presented as a consistent evil since before you were born. That's plain bias and indoctrination. Americans have done very bad things too. Members of all nations have. Besides, which specific Russians do you mean? The dumb f3cks in the trenches some of whom don't seem the know where they were or what they were doing there or their leaders who have ordered them there, or every last one of them, men, women and children? Again it's a vast oversimplification. Nothing is that black and white.
Finally you have a tendency to use many informal fallacies that don't hold any weight in a debate. Accusing people of being Kremlin Janes or whatever or laughing at a source because of who they are is weak arguing. In academic circles it mostly negates the necessity for a response. It's not who says a thing it's what they said and in that case of the videos you laughed at you are actually mistaken, Russel Brand is neither here nor there, that was the former prime minister of Israel whose visits and content of those meetings were documented at the time.
The civilized community of nations simply can’t tolerate that kind of aggression in the 21st century.
If this is a humanitarian intervention of self-defence against a violent aggressor then how come not a single finger has been lifted to intervene in Myanmar where civilians are similarly being violently suppressed by an anti-democratic junta as we speak. It is in fact the exact opposite. Many developed nations of the world including the US are selling weapons directly knowing full well who they're going to be used on. This is also a matter of UN record, despite the fact that several of the nations selling weapons are UN member states. It is therefore not the protection of innocent civilians that are the motivations. That's what you call a proof by contradiction.
Why don't we face it: the present model of human society depends on perpetual war, unjust and unwise distribution of resources, both natural and human without any balance and governments are merely an intermediary between those non-democratic entities who are as hell-bent on enslaving every resource the planet has to offer - including it's people - in the same way Major Kong rides the nuke in, hooting and hollering as he goes. It is highly likely a Fermi-paradox event is the end-game to this cycle. How can it be stopped as long as people's minds are so easily manipulated? Is it not odd that many of the posts herein are discussing which media outlet can be trusted and to what extent? You have to think for yourself. Get the tools and use them.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 13, 2023, 01:23:38 PM
What scenario was Russia in that made invading Ukraine the "only possible conclusion" ?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2023, 01:25:20 PM
What scenario was Russia in that made invading Ukraine the "only possible conclusion" ?
Go back and listen to Putins speeches to the UN. They shrugged him off and called him a propagandist or what ever. Thinking they can just do what ever they want on Russias border without consequence. Then they blamed a US election result on Russia, trying to make them the enemy. I mean, I'd be pretty pissed and fed up with the BS too. How many more bioweapon attacks do you want and what were they really doing with Metabiota? Imagine the level of serious corruption Russia really knows about the the west just shrugs off. Are these people really the good guys? Notice a pattern? Are these groups you want controlling the world government?
Go back and listen to Putins speeches to the UN. They shrugged him off and called him a propagandist or what ever. Thinking they can just do what ever they want on Russias border without consequence. Then they blamed a US election result on Russia, trying to make them the enemy. I mean, I'd be pretty pissed and fed up with the BS too. How many more bioweapon attacks do you want and what were they really doing with Metabiota? Imagine the level of serious corruption Russia really knows about the the west just shrugs off. Are these people really the good guys? Notice a pattern? Are these groups you want controlling the world government?
(https://i.ibb.co/3Sh7DRr/IKIO0w-HTGXF0.png)
dude aren't you tired yet of pushing conspiracy theories without proof?
how did your prediction about covid came out? you only missed it by over a million. and how about you 90k secret indictments, that didn't happen either.
semp
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: rabbidrabbit on February 14, 2023, 09:01:39 AM
Can't you guys go trash some other thread or start one of your own and trash it like the dozens of other threads that got locked for the same reason?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 09:04:52 AM
Putin has been working to plug those blue access points for the last 20 years since he seized power. He is not going to stop voluntarily, no matter what the "Useful Idiots" in the West claim. He has already subjugated the "stans", Chechnya and Belarus into vassal states. He is trying for Ukraine now. Look at that map and you can see why Poland and the Baltic States see themselves as next on the chopping block.
NATO didn't expand towards russia's borders as much as all the bordering states next to russia begged NATO for protection from a mass-murdering expansionist dictator. For good reason obviously. NATO simply didn't turn their back on them and let them get swallowed by the russian menace.
As long as putin(spit) still has young male russian warm bodies to throw at it, he won't stop. We either eliminate putin(spit) or eliminate his stockpile of young male russian warm bodies. I'm OK with either solution.
The best solution of course would be for russia(spit) to simply withdraw to it's own borders and stay there. But while putin breaths, that won't happen.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 14, 2023, 09:19:19 AM
dude aren't you tired yet of pushing conspiracy theories without proof?
how did your prediction about covid came out? you only missed it by over a million. and how about you 90k secret indictments, that didn't happen either.
semp
What conspiracy theory semp? This is real... why are they allowed to take over the world?
"What Conspiracy Theories of today will be the real news Tomorrow?"
A ring of truth to it but the argument opens up believability to every possible lie being true when in fact most are just propaganda. This line is great for giving legitimacy to obviously false narratives.
Only by having honest conversations and doing due diligence can rational persons separate truth from fiction. It is buyer be ware in the world of information more so than ever. That is why I created the thread in ICOM. The same people trash every conceivably political thread over and over again so I did not create the tread here.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 10:06:55 AM
And the hits just keep on coming. Moldova is part of that Bessarabian Gap along with part of the NATO country of Romania. Also on putin's chopping block.
Perhaps you are not aware, Jane, but the US is treaty bound to defend any attack on NATO countries with the immediate and direct intervention of US troops. We have had that pledged obligation, by signed treaty, since 1949. If putin attacks a NATO country we have no choice.
That is why it is vital to stop putin before he attacks a NATO country. If he is not stopped in Ukraine, he will only be emboldened. He will be so much closer to his ultimate goal, there is no way he would stop then.
Yes, even though his military has proven to be incompetent, he still believes he has one advantage over the West. He believes his advantage is a higher tolerance for loss of life. He doesn't care about the hundreds of thousands of russian lives he wastes any more than the hundreds of thousands of civilian lives he has wasted in countries like Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea.
He hopes he can drown the West in enough blood on both sides that the hand wringing "Useful Idiots" in the West to call for giving what ever he wants just to stop the killing. Then he moves on to the next target.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 11:05:19 AM
Quote
"I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air." - Margaret Thatcher
As he can't defeat the comic mr z and corrupt Ukraine do you think he would invade anywhere the war mongers can unleash a money making NATO adventure?
Yes. For the same reason he thinks he can be ultimately win in Ukraine. By flooding the zone with enough bodies to use up the ammo and grind down defenses with mountains of human flesh and by relying on the Fifth Column of Kremlin Janes and Useful Idiots in the West to rot out our resolve to resist from within.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 14, 2023, 11:32:34 AM
When are flying over and joining the Ukraine forces on the ground General CptTrips?
Hooking up with your boys here maybe - Azov Battalion?
They need your wit and strategic thinking to pull them through
Peace ✌️
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 11:36:53 AM
War reporting is political propaganda. Even those observing first hand are likely to be biased and of course can't see everything all the time.
Can be political propaganda. That is why looking at what is coming from both sides and then matched up against observable facts is the best way to understand a conflict. If you read my thread on ICOM you will see that. You don't have to be on one side or the other. You don't have to overlook misdeeds on your "side" just because. You also don't have to take everything one side says as fact and the other fiction. That is how you let propaganda be used to manipulate your perspective. You can see it in spades in this thread.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 12:45:39 PM
All part of the plan.
Of course russia denies there are any such plans to overthrow Moldova.
In other news, russia still claims there are "no such plans" to invade Ukraine. The pictures of russian troops and tanks in Ukraine are all just deep-faked Western propaganda. Fake news.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 14, 2023, 12:49:35 PM
When you are called names because you are for peace something is very wrong
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: AKIron on February 14, 2023, 12:50:43 PM
I know we're doing it all wrong. We should be getting paid for "protection", not paying for it. Unless....
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: rabbidrabbit on February 14, 2023, 01:00:10 PM
When you are called names because you are for peace something is very wrong
Eagler
Neither party wants peace on the others terms. Therefore there is zero percent chance of actual peace in the foreseeable future.
The only side pushing the "peace" narrative is doing so to undermine support in the west for UA. The argument that eliminating western support for UA would induce them to capitulate is observably false if you follow what they are saying with 95% plus popular support for defending their land.
So, everyone is for peace but you are pushing the "peace" narrative that leaves your position based on either ignorance of how the war is playing out or deliberately pro Russian conquest of UA.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 01:01:50 PM
It still amazes me that so many in a community that has a deep knowledge of WWII history, learned none of the hard lessons about appeasing an expansionist dictator.
How much better would it have been for the world, if it had taken a hard line and stopped Hitler cold in 38-39?
Give him Austria, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace. Give him the Rhineland, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace. Give him the Sudetenland, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace. Give him Czechoslovakia, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace.
Sure sounds like...
Give him Chechnya, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace. Give him Georgia, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace. Give him Crimea, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace.
Give him Ukraine, then he'll be satisfied and we can have peace.
"Peace in Our Time..." (https://www.history.com/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cg_faces:center%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_768/MTU3OTIzNjYwOTQyNTUwNjc0/chamberlain-declares-peace-for-our-time-75-years-agos-featured-photo.jpg)
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 01:04:06 PM
When you are called names because you are for peace something is very wrong
Collaborators in WWII got treated a lot worse.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 14, 2023, 01:32:48 PM
Russia was at peace before they invaded Ukraine. Russia was at peace before they took Crimea and before they instigated wars in regions of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 01:41:46 PM
Putting children in concentration\re-education camps now? For forced adoption?
All putin wants is peace. Give peace a chance.
Quote
Russian forces have relocated at least 6,000 Ukrainian children to camps and facilities across Russia for forced adoptions and military training, according to a new report.
Russia was at peace before they invaded Ukraine. Russia was at peace before they took Crimea and before they instigated wars in regions of Ukraine.
Which occured after the 2014 US interference...you know what we then accused them of doing to us in 2016
The videos posted showed the invasion was a ploy to push Ukraine into peace terms but the west interference stopped that...why do you think that happened?
Not for war of any kind
I don't think the west wants the war to end for any reason at this point...it's become too lucrative and is one of the legs holding up the crumbling economy for many
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2023, 01:48:32 PM
Which occured after the 2014 US interference...you know what we then accused them of doing to us in 2016
The videos posted showed the invasion was a ploy to push Ukraine into peace terms but the west interference stopped that...why do you think that happened?
Not for war of any kind
I don't think the west wants the war to end for any reason at this point...it's become too lucrative and is one of the legs holding up the crumbling economy for many
Eagler
I'm going to let someone else deal with this collaborator for a while. Just not worth the keystrokes.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 14, 2023, 01:49:43 PM
I don't think the west wants the war to end for any reason at this point...it's become too lucrative and is one of the legs holding up the crumbling economy for many
Eagler
I'm trying to objectively explain to you why neither UA or Putin wants peace at this time. They both have the will and ability to continue. If both of them wanted actual peace they would do so. They are not. It does not matter what the "west" wants. Therefore, you saying what you are does not line up with the observable facts of the conflict. They do line up with the pro Russian narrative being pitched to the west to undermine western support.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 14, 2023, 01:54:55 PM
Which occured after the 2014 US interference...you know what we then accused them of doing to us in 2016
The videos posted showed the invasion was a ploy to push Ukraine into peace terms but the west interference stopped that...why do you think that happened?
Not for war of any kind
I don't think the west wants the war to end for any reason at this point...it's become too lucrative and is one of the legs holding up the crumbling economy for many
Eagler
Sure. Whatever you say.
Why did Russia have to "push Ukraine into peace terms" to begin with? For what?
All Russia has to do to achieve peace is to stop the war and go back home. Ukraine cannot end the war. No one but Russia can end the war, and all they have to do is go home.
Russia was never under any threat from Ukraine at any time.
People say "yeah but NATO is right on there border" - well so what? Is Poland a threat to Russia? Is Russia going to invade Poland next?
Russia is the aggressor and they initiated this war.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Eagler on February 14, 2023, 02:30:33 PM
Never said they weren't or did not start the war ..both are true...
Enjoy your war with the death and misery it brings for some..the most innocent
While the war mongers laugh all the way to the bank
I am done here...and unlike your post, it means I will not be posting any additional responses in this thread
✌️
Eagler
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: rabbidrabbit on February 14, 2023, 02:48:29 PM
Never said they weren't or did not start the war ..both are true...
Enjoy your war with the death and misery it brings for some..the most innocent
While the war mongers laugh all the way to the bank
I am done here...and unlike your post, it means I will not be posting any additional responses in this thread
✌️
Eagler
The obvious part that you keep ignoring is that UA has no choice but to fight or surrender unconditionally and Putin can decide at any point to end the war by withdrawing his invasion force.
You keep going on about peace but the Russians want conquest and subjugation. If you followed the actual events on the ground instead of high level one sided talking points you would be aware why the Ukrainians are so united in their opinion that their only path to peace is victory. That has a lot to do with the systematic looting and murdering that has gone on in every community the Russians have "liberated". Faced with the choice of unconditional surrender or fight, they chose to fight with or without western support.
The narrative that if western countries would just not support the UA people the war would be over is clearly false and is also a talking point of pro Russian propaganda sites.
Again, your entire narrative about you being for peace and someone else who recognizes the UA situation is disingenuous. I strongly encourage you to read the thread if you want to understand the war from both sides once you get past the propaganda talking points.
I'm not saying you are a bad person or Russian agent or anything like that. I'm simply trying to help you see why things are the way they are and why the angle you are fixated on is not based on reality.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: sparky127 on February 14, 2023, 05:32:17 PM
I saw a video today of a kid being arrested for not showing up for his conscription. Some say it was Ukrainian some say Russian. They all look and sound the same to me... Anyhow, lots of folks up in arms over forced conscription.
Lots of folks up in arms over forced conscription.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: sparky127 on February 14, 2023, 05:38:33 PM
I heard that this whole misunderstanding comes down to NATO ignoring Putin's pleas for no ICBMs planted at his back door... Is that remotely true?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Meatwad on February 14, 2023, 07:09:39 PM
I thought those were long removed as part of the nuclear reduction treaty
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Oldman731 on February 14, 2023, 09:03:02 PM
from jets Pallavi bought but were never delivered?
semp
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Shuffler on February 15, 2023, 04:46:00 PM
I can see where Russians might not want to fight, since they are invading another country. I would be surprised if someone in the country being invaded did not want to fight.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: Meatwad on February 15, 2023, 06:19:14 PM
Seen this
"The war in Ukraine is consuming an enormous amount of munitions and depleting allied stockpiles," NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said Monday. "The current rate of Ukraine’s ammunition expenditure is many times higher than our current rate of production. This puts our defense industries under strain."
How about not depleting NATO stockpiles and we keeping them just in case NATO needs to actually defend itself
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 15, 2023, 06:39:30 PM
"The war in Ukraine is consuming an enormous amount of munitions and depleting allied stockpiles," NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said Monday. "The current rate of Ukraine’s ammunition expenditure is many times higher than our current rate of production. This puts our defense industries under strain."
How about not depleting NATO stockpiles and we keeping them just in case NATO needs to actually defend itself
The logic is probably that by withholding the ammo, you guarantee that NATO will have to defend itself.
You can expend your ammo on russians in Ukraine, or you can expend your ammo on russians in Poland. The difference being whether American troops get shot at while you're doing it. I’d rather expend the ammo on the russians in Ukraine.
Besides, the russians are expending all their resources in Ukraine too. Plus the dead bodies.
We’ll make more weapons. However long that takes, we still have 1000x the production capacity that russia has. The russians don't even have the micro chips to replenish their arms. They are ripping chips out of refrigerators and crazy stuff. In a production war, they are unarmed.
With any luck, russia will break from the losses in Ukraine and never get to Poland to shoot at US troops. And putin will end up getting the Mussolini treatment. Upside down on a meat hook.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: AKIron on February 15, 2023, 07:08:00 PM
Good of Iran to step up and help with the munitions.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 15, 2023, 07:56:50 PM
Ammo well spent.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: KgB on February 15, 2023, 09:05:11 PM
The fact that its proxy war and we (USA)is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands on boths sides, i mean it doesn't bother you?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: KgB on February 15, 2023, 09:14:21 PM
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/fCaRmDc1he62 (https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/fCaRmDc1he62) Soldier's disciplining. There's no blood in the video, everyone is alive. Translation is available upon request.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: -gg- on February 15, 2023, 09:58:23 PM
It's not a proxy war and the only people responsible are the Russians.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: CptTrips on February 15, 2023, 11:13:09 PM
If tptb cannot convince mothers and fathers to send their sons and daughters into the meat grinder, it isn't a fight worth fighting.
If someone is not bothered by one megalomaniac insane narcist sending his brainwashed troops (cleaning Ukraine from nazis, satanists, occultists etc.) to torture, butcher, rob, loot, destroy and terrorize mothers, their children, senior citizens, well, then from that point of view it is a war not worth of fighting. But those who are the targets of one megalomaniac insane narcists special charity operation, they seem to think differently.
Here where I live, we have people from Ukraine. Women with their kids, senior citizens, mostly from Donbass area. (Not those "refugees", which dummy European leftist politicians are collecting from other continents, as in those groups all family members [father, mother, children] are all about same age, relatively young men. Modern rainbow families perhaps?)
I've been talking with those Ukrainians, majority of them are russian speaking ones. They did not want russia, they did not wish be liberated by one megalomaniac insane narcist. Why?
Have you ever been in russia? I have, more than 30 times, in work related trips. That's together with Iraq a place where I have spent some time and do not yearn back. And when that one megalomaniac insane narcist is behind one tiny ocean, it is easy to say what ever, but when he is stone throw away, it puts things in a bit different perspective, as he won't stop in Ukraine, if he gets it. Megalomaniac insane narcist wants more.
Propaganda against neighboring countries has been going on more than a decade to prepare folks in russia for a big charity program, which is cleaning Europe from those nazis, satanists, occultists and other monsters, which have taken over the whole continent. When in national TV there are talks about preventive nuclear strikes to neighbor country and novorossija from Kaliningrad to Iberian peninsula, they are not parodies. Unfortunately.
Did Hitler stop when got what he demanded..? Stalin, the big liberator of Eastern Europe..?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: sparky127 on February 16, 2023, 05:07:21 AM
I'm not sending my grand kids to die in another eurobarbarian war.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: GasTeddy on February 16, 2023, 05:58:57 AM
I'm not sending my grand kids to die in another eurobarbarian war.
Nobody's telling you to do that, I presume. Only Americans fighting in Ukraine have been volunteers, if you didn't happen to know that. Now you know.
But what would you think if beast was tearing down your garden's fence? "Ah, let it have the fence, it didn't like its color and structure. It will calm down when there's no fence"..?
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: rabbidrabbit on February 16, 2023, 06:11:22 AM
The fact that its proxy war and we (USA)is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands on boths sides, i mean it doesn't bother you?
You are mixing a political point of view into your position. UA is receiving aid from most of the world which is different than positioning it as a US proxy war on Russia which is a profoundly myopic picture.
You could honestly say Russia had been comitting a proxy war on UA from 2014 until the main invasion last year as the separatist movement had a low 20's% support until the FSB took over the cause and imported tens of thousands of supporters, culled thousands of non supporters and used active duty military and the PMC Wagner to conduct operations. That is a solid example of one country conducting a proxy war whereas being one country among much of the rest of the world supporting a country defending itself from an invasion is a poor example of a proxy war.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: sparky127 on February 16, 2023, 08:10:30 AM
Nobody's telling you to do that, I presume. Only Americans fighting in Ukraine have been volunteers, if you didn't happen to know that.
Yet. I'm just telling you up front my stance for when tptb start beating the "boots on the ground" drum.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 16, 2023, 08:53:15 AM
Remember, it's okay for George Soros, the only person with great power who actually worked with the Nazis and admitted to destroying countries economies with monetary manipulation and laughed, to commit a color revolution and remove political leaders in Ukraine while installing actual Nazis like Tinybook or however you spell his name. There has been countless terrorist attacks by Ukraine on their own people in the north. There is a reason NATO didn't touch Ukraine, and why no other country is really helping besides sending equipment. They know.
To the layman and people who refuse to acknowledge any truth about Ukrainian corruption, it looks like Russia is the bad guy. Especially with George Soros's media propaganda arm and the west's propaganda machines, the same propagandist who attacked the former president relentlessly, the same George Soros who called him a threat to the NWO at Bilderberg. Who got "impeached" by the same people when trying to expose the massive state backed corruption with bio and energy companies doing who knows what. When Ukraine leaders tried to remove a prosecutor going after Bidens corruption, they did. Ukraine, one of the largest trafficking countries in the world being used by some of the richest people on the planet. I think Putin is quite frankly tired of their BS. We didn't have this war under Trump because he was working to end the corruption. Biden is continuing the corruption and that's why Putin went in.
Title: Re: Ukraine War Thread
Post by: MiloMorai on February 16, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Remember, it's okay for George Soros, the only person with great power who actually worked with the Nazis and admitted to destroying countries economies with monetary manipulation and laughed, to commit a color revolution and remove political leaders in Ukraine while installing actual Nazis like Tinybook or however you spell his name. There has been countless terrorist attacks by Ukraine on their own people in the north. There is a reason NATO didn't touch Ukraine, and why no other country is really helping besides sending equipment. They know.
To the layman and people who refuse to acknowledge any truth about Ukrainian corruption, it looks like Russia is the bad guy. Especially with George Soros's media propaganda arm and the west's propaganda machines, the same propagandist who attacked the former president relentlessly, the same George Soros who called him a threat to the NWO at Bilderberg. Who got "impeached" by the same people when trying to expose the massive state backed corruption with bio and energy companies doing who knows what. When Ukraine leaders tried to remove a prosecutor going after Bidens corruption, they did. Ukraine, one of the largest trafficking countries in the world being used by some of the richest people on the planet. I think Putin is quite frankly tired of their BS. We didn't have this war under Trump because he was working to end the corruption. Biden is continuing the corruption and that's why Putin went in.